Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org [172.17.192.35]) by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 85E45CFC for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 21:46:05 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from mail-io0-f172.google.com (mail-io0-f172.google.com [209.85.223.172]) by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B7867117 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 21:46:04 +0000 (UTC) Received: by ioc74 with SMTP id 74so140455858ioc.2 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 13:46:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=JUI/VEwJnZ1RsjmFBHb5Lzoob5ats1Na6U6BnqZlV0I=; b=voEOQBCdyURGGCcaq6P6inbqalaVyd+1BZ6cceKl2nCyfrX283DNdp2zolBISHTgle p4Vsa7eXn+woOyHzaRaSql3XglYJcsagF3AxQiMVz2ouYn9UaRnPJjiMNK+hJDCEBRZp AXk/Qps5F/bjiVPnFytZzmFI2qm5KLMgz530L7tEteFoYItee6A0APV0/j/F8Boprazr xyXiRS1n6F/Qs15aZC/8N8IMfhNfF+/7VCmSMO8A9GD8Jxq4Lt7XoSTdnWsJWYuVO/Wa dYau3dtyIRaXutVu6dM9TM5occFLHSRuWCxIdXWRJXEWWVabHKG2aMc0KeW8FVjzZf9/ T1ZA== X-Received: by 10.107.148.8 with SMTP id w8mr18513382iod.3.1449870364179; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 13:46:04 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.64.12.177 with HTTP; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 13:45:44 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: Luke Durback Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 16:45:44 -0500 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?B?Sm9yZ2UgVGltw7Nu?= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113fe51e0702e60526a640f2 X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU, FREEMAIL_FROM, HTML_MESSAGE, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW, URIBL_BLACK autolearn=no version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 21:46:35 +0000 Cc: Bitcoin Dev Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Standard BIP Draft: Turing Pseudo-Completeness X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Development Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 21:46:05 -0000 --001a113fe51e0702e60526a640f2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >If it's voting for something consensus, you will need something special. If it's not consensus (ie external) thw voting doesn't have to hit the chain at all. I had in mind voting for something that can't be trusted if done externally: Perhaps BIPs for instance. People would somehow "mark" their BTC as being "For Proposition X" (as opposed to all other propositions) and the vote would be canceled as soon as the BTC is spent again. Unfortunately, I've spent the past 2 days trying to find a design that would allow this (I don't think my original suggestion made sense in the context of how transactions work), and I haven't gotten much yet. >But each scriptSig is only executed once with its corresponding scriptPubKey. Are you proposing we change that? Sorry, I didn't understand Bitcoin's transaction model well enough when I first made the proposal. If Turing Pseudo-Completeness is possible with Bitcoin, then I understand now that it could not require you to execute a script more than once. My current thought is that recursion can be accomplished via checking if the next output's scriptPubKey is identical in every way to the current scriptPubKey. Unfortunately, a lot more is needed than just recursion in order to do on-chain BTC voting the way I have in mind. I'll keep working on this. On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 10:36 AM, Jorge Tim=C3=B3n wrote= : > > On Dec 10, 2015 7:36 AM, "Luke Durback" wrote: > > > > Tomorrow, I'll work on writing a way to do voting on proposals with BTC > used as voting shares (This will be difficult as I do not know FORTH). > That seems like a fairly simple, useful example that will require loops a= nd > reused functions. I'll add a fee that goes to the creator. > > If it's voting for something consensus, you will need something special. > If it's not consensus (ie external) thw voting doesn't have to hit the > chain at all. > I don't see how "loops and reused functions" are needed in the scripting > language for this use case, but I'm probably missing some details. Please= , > the more concrete you make your example, the easiest it will be for me to > understand. > > > IMO, if you write a complicated system of scripts that's used > frequently, it makes sense to charge a fee for its usage. > > But each scriptSig is only executed once with its corresponding > scriptPubKey. Are you proposing we change that? > > > A decentralized exchange between colored coins, for instance might tak= e > a small fee on each trade. > > I've been researching the topic of decentralized exchange from before the > term "colored coins" was first used (now there's multiple designs and > implementations); contributed to and reviewed many designs: none of them > (colored coins or not) required turing completeness. > I'm sorry, but what you are saying here is too vague for me to concretely > be able to refute the low level "needs" you claim your use cases to have. > > > On Dec 10, 2015 10:10 AM, "Luke Durback via bitcoin-dev" < > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > > > This, combined with the ability to make new transactions arbitrarily > would allow a function to pay its creator. > > > > I don't understand what you mean by "a function" in this context, I > assume you mean a scriptSig, but then "paying its creator" doesn't make > much sense to me . > > > > Could you provide some high level examples of the use cases you would > like to support with this? > --001a113fe51e0702e60526a640f2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>If it's voting fo= r something consensus, you will need something special. If it's not con= sensus (ie external) thw voting doesn't have to hit the chain at all.

I had in mind voting for something that can't be trusted i= f done externally: =C2=A0Perhaps BIPs for instance.=C2=A0 People would some= how "mark" their BTC as being "For Proposition X" (as o= pposed to all other propositions) and the vote would be canceled as soon as= the BTC is spent again.

Unfortunately, I've spent t= he past 2 days trying to find a design that would allow this (I don't t= hink my original suggestion made sense in the context of how transactions w= ork), and I haven't gotten much yet.

>But each scriptSig is only executed once with its corresponding s= criptPubKey. Are you proposing we change that?

Sorry, I didn't u= nderstand Bitcoin's transaction model well enough when I first made the= proposal.=C2=A0 If Turing Pseudo-Completeness is possible with Bitcoin, th= en I understand now that it could not require you to execute a script more = than once.=C2=A0 My current thought is that recursion can be accomplished v= ia checking if the next output's scriptPubKey is identical in every way= to the current scriptPubKey.=C2=A0 Unfortunately, a lot more is needed tha= n just recursion in order to do on-chain BTC voting the way I have in mind.= =C2=A0 I'll keep working on this.

On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 10:36 AM, Jorge Tim=C3=B3n <jtimon@jtimon.c= c> wrote:
=


On Dec 10, 2015 7:36 AM, "Luke Durback" <luke.durback@gmail.com> wrote= :
>
> Tomorrow, I'll work on writing a way to do voting on proposals wit= h BTC used as voting shares (This will be difficult as I do not know FORTH)= .=C2=A0 That seems like a fairly simple, useful example that will require l= oops and reused functions.=C2=A0 I'll add a fee that goes to the creato= r.

If it's voting for something consensus, you will = need something special. If it's not consensus (ie external) thw voting = doesn't have to hit the chain at all.
I don't see how "loops and reused functions" are needed in th= e scripting language for this use case, but I'm probably missing some d= etails. Please, the more concrete you make your example, the easiest it wil= l be for me to understand.

> IMO, if you write a complicated system of scripts that&= #39;s used frequently, it makes sense to charge a fee for its usage.

But each scriptSig is only executed once with its cor= responding scriptPubKey. Are you proposing we change that?

>=C2=A0 A decentralized exchange between colored coins, f= or instance might take a small fee on each trade.

I've been researching the topic of decentralized = exchange from before the term "colored coins" was first used (now= there's multiple designs and implementations); contributed to and revi= ewed many designs: none of them (colored coins or not) required turing comp= leteness.
I'm sorry, but what you are saying here is too vague for me to concrete= ly be able to refute the low level "needs" you claim your use cas= es to have.

> On Dec 10, 2015 10:10 AM, "Luke Durback via bitcoi= n-dev" <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> > This, combined with the ability to make new transactions arbitrar= ily would allow a function to pay its creator.
>
> I don't understand what you mean by "a function" in this= context, I assume you mean a scriptSig, but then "paying its creator&= quot; doesn't make much sense to me .
>
> Could you provide some high level examples of the use cases you would = like to support with this?


--001a113fe51e0702e60526a640f2--