Received: from sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.193] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-1.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1Wc65p-0001vh-3P for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Mon, 21 Apr 2014 04:44:33 +0000 Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.213.178 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.213.178; envelope-from=lidstrom83@gmail.com; helo=mail-ig0-f178.google.com; Received: from mail-ig0-f178.google.com ([209.85.213.178]) by sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) id 1Wc65l-0006Re-Nn for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Mon, 21 Apr 2014 04:44:33 +0000 Received: by mail-ig0-f178.google.com with SMTP id hn18so1428988igb.11 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 2014 21:44:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.42.251.78 with SMTP id mr14mr28521767icb.47.1398055464379; Sun, 20 Apr 2014 21:44:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.64.73.129 with HTTP; Sun, 20 Apr 2014 21:44:24 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <52CDA01B-13BF-4BB8-AC9A-5FBBB324FD15@sant.ox.ac.uk> Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 22:44:24 -0600 Message-ID: From: Daniel Lidstrom To: Peter Todd Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=14dae934128554a94204f7862738 X-Spam-Score: -0.3 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. -1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for sender-domain 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (lidstrom83[at]gmail.com) -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 0.2 FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT Envelope-from freemail username ends in digit (lidstrom83[at]gmail.com) 1.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message -0.1 DKIM_VALID_AU Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature X-Headers-End: 1Wc65l-0006Re-Nn Cc: Bitcoin Dev , Jonathan Levin Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Economics of information propagation X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2014 04:44:33 -0000 --14dae934128554a94204f7862738 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Of course, in reality smaller miners can just mine on top of block header= s > and include no transactions and do no validation, but that is extremely > harmful to the security of Bitcoin. If it's only during the few seconds that it takes to to verify the block, then would this really be that big of a deal? E.g. even if all miners did this, a 10 second delay would only yield an average of a couple blind/empty blocks per day. On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 10:06 PM, Peter Todd wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA256 > > That is mistaken: you can't mine on top of just a block header, leaving > small miners disadvantaged as they are earning no profit while they wait > for the information to validate the block and update their UTXO sets. Thi= s > results in the same problem as before, as the large pools who mine most > blocks can validate either instantly - the self-mine case - or more quick= ly > than the smaller miners. > > Of course, in reality smaller miners can just mine on top of block header= s > and include no transactions and do no validation, but that is extremely > harmful to the security of Bitcoin. > > > On 20 April 2014 23:58:58 GMT-04:00, Mark Friedenbach > wrote: > >As soon as we switch to headers > >first - which will be soon - there will be no difference in propagation > >time no matter how large the block is. Only 80 bites will be required > >to > >propagate the block header which establishes priority for when the > >block is > >fully validated. > >On Apr 20, 2014 6:56 PM, "Jonathan Levin" > > > >wrote: > > > >> Hi all, > >> > >> I am a post-graduate economist writing a paper on the incentives of > >> mining. Even though this issue has been debated in the forums, I > >think it > >> is important to get a sense of the magnitude of the incentives at > >play and > >> determine what implications this has for the transaction fee market. > >> > >> As it has been pointed out before the marginal cost for miners does > >not > >> stem from the private cost of the miner validating the signature and > >> including it in the list of transactions in the block but rather the > >> increased probability that the block will be orphaned as a result of > >slower > >> propagation. Gavin did some back of the envelope worst case > >calculations > >> but these overstated the effect of propagation delay. The reason > >being the > >> 80ms additional time to reach 50% of the network is spread throughout > >the > >> time that it takes to reach 50% of the network. During this time > >miners are > >> notified about the block and treat it as the longest chain and hence > >are no > >> longer mining with the aim to produce a competing block. > >> > >> I am looking to calculate the change in the curvature of the > >probability > >> mass function that a block hears about my block in any given second > >as a > >> function of the block size. Although there is likely to be > >significant > >> noise here, there seems to be some stable linear relationships with > >the > >> time that it takes to reach different quartiles. Has anyone done > >this? I > >> have used some empirical data that I am happy to share but ideally I > >would > >> like analytical solutions. > >> > >> Following Peter Todd, I also find the concerning result that > >propagation > >> delays results in increasing returns to higher shares of the hashing > >power. > >> Indeed it may well be in the interest of large pools to publish large > >> blocks to increase propagation delays on the network which would > >increase > >> orphan rates particularly for small miners and miners that have not > >> invested in sufficient bandwidth / connectivity. If a small miner > >hears > >> about a block after 4.5 seconds on average there is a 0.7% chance > >that > >> there is already a block in circulation. Large miners can increase > >the > >> time that it takes for small miners to hear about blocks by > >increasing the > >> size of their blocks. For example if the time that it takes for a > >small > >> miner to hear about the block goes to 12 seconds there is a 2 percent > >> chance there is already a block in circulation for the small miner. > >There > >> is also a 1.2% chance that there will be a competing block published > >after > >> a small miner propagates in the time that it gets to full > >propagation. Am I > >> getting this right that the probability of a miner=E2=80=99s block bei= ng > >orphaned > >> is comprised of the probability that the miner was not the first to > >find a > >> valid block and the probability that given they are first, someone > >else in > >> the absence of hearing about it finds a competing valid block. > >> > >> One question is: Are orphans probabilistic and only resolved after > >hearing > >> about a new block that lengthens the chain or is there a way to know > >in > >> advance? Is it frowned upon to mine on top of a block that you have > >just > >> found even though it is very likely going to end up an orphan? > >> > >> Would be happy to share the draft form of the paper and receive any > >> feedback. > >> > >> Finally, at coinometrics we are working on a modified client to > >capture > >> information on network propagation and would invite any suggestions > >of any > >> other useful statistics that would be useful in the development of > >software. > >> > >> Best, > >> > >> Jonathan > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On 21 Apr 2014, at 01:16, < > >> bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net> < > >> bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote: > >> > >> > Send Bitcoin-development mailing list submissions to > >> > bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > >> > > >> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > >> > > >https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > >> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > >> > bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net > >> > > >> > You can reach the person managing the list at > >> > bitcoin-development-owner@lists.sourceforge.net > >> > > >> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > >> > than "Re: Contents of Bitcoin-development digest..." > >> > > >> > > >> > Today's Topics: > >> > > >> > 1. Re: "bits": Unit of account (Oliver Egginger) > >> > 2. Re: "bits": Unit of account (Christophe Biocca) > >> > 3. Re: "bits": Unit of account (Gmail) > >> > 4. Re: "bits": Unit of account (Mike Caldwell) > >> > 5. Re: "bits": Unit of account (Justin A) > >> > > >> > > >> > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > > >> > Message: 1 > >> > Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 20:43:24 +0200 > >> > From: Oliver Egginger > >> > Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] "bits": Unit of account > >> > To: Bitcoin Development > >> > Message-ID: <5354154C.1080908@olivere.de> > >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1 > >> > > >> > Hello, > >> > > >> > just my two 'cents': > >> > > >> > Terms arises by itself. Just as most people speak of coins when > >they > >> > mean bitcoins. I do not see that bitcoin is currently in common use > >> > except for speculation. Therefore no term for smaller units has > >> > established yet. No problem in my eyes. Time will tell. > >> > > >> > - oliver > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > ------------------------------ > >> > > >> > Message: 2 > >> > Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 15:19:38 -0400 > >> > From: Christophe Biocca > >> > Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] "bits": Unit of account > >> > To: Bitcoin Development > >> > Message-ID: > >> > >> TAnaCuyh_P2GqHaguyY39xjhj84HSA_x+6F4MOqM_A@mail.gmail.com> > >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUTF-8 > >> > > >> > Culturally neutral? "bit" in French phonetically collides with > >slang > >> > for phallus ("bitte", with a silent "e"). Apparently it means > >"louse" > >> > in Turkish as well. > >> > > >> > Not that this really would be avoidable with any short word (all > >the > >> > short possible words are usually taken), but it's not neutral. > >> > > >> > On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 2:43 PM, Oliver Egginger > > > >> wrote: > >> >> Hello, > >> >> > >> >> just my two 'cents': > >> >> > >> >> Terms arises by itself. Just as most people speak of coins when > >they > >> >> mean bitcoins. I do not see that bitcoin is currently in common > >use > >> >> except for speculation. Therefore no term for smaller units has > >> >> established yet. No problem in my eyes. Time will tell. > >> >> > >> >> - oliver > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------ > >> >> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book > >> >> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases > >and > >> their > >> >> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, > >> >> this first edition is now available. Download your free book > >today! > >> >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech > >> >> _______________________________________________ > >> >> Bitcoin-development mailing list > >> >> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > >> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > ------------------------------ > >> > > >> > Message: 3 > >> > Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 14:32:26 -0500 > >> > From: Gmail > >> > Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] "bits": Unit of account > >> > Cc: Bitcoin Development > >> > Message-ID: > >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii" > >> > > >> > People in the Bitcoin community are sometimes resistant to the idea > >of > >> using the word "credit" as a unit of Bitcoin, because Bitcoin is not > >a > >> credit-based system. > >> > > >> > However, given that the average person has close to no > >understanding of > >> what "credit" means, and probably no concern for the distinction even > >if > >> they do know, it may be wise to use the futuristic and easily > >> understandable "credit" as our human-friendly unit. > >> > > >> > Do others agree that "credits" as a unit of account has a desirable > >> futuristic connotation? > >> > > >> > Will > >> > > >> > -------------- next part -------------- > >> > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > >> > Name: smime.p7s > >> > Type: application/pkcs7-signature > >> > Size: 1593 bytes > >> > Desc: not available > >> > > >> > ------------------------------ > >> > > >> > Message: 4 > >> > Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 16:28:34 -0400 > >> > From: Mike Caldwell > >> > Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] "bits": Unit of account > >> > To: Christophe Biocca > >> > Cc: Bitcoin Development > >> > Message-ID: <4098C706-D67F-474E-9C13-E4C8F56B41ED@swipeclock.com> > >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii" > >> > > >> > By culturally neutral I mean we avoid deliberately invoking a > >cultural > >> reference in the name. For example "satoshi" would be a reference to > >> Japanese culture just for being a common Japanese name regardless of > >who > >> Satoshi turns out to be. > >> > > >> > Mike > >> > > >> > Sent from my iPhone > >> > > >> >> On Apr 20, 2014, at 1:20 PM, "Christophe Biocca" < > >> christophe.biocca@gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> > >> >> Culturally neutral? "bit" in French phonetically collides with > >slang > >> >> for phallus ("bitte", with a silent "e"). Apparently it means > >"louse" > >> >> in Turkish as well. > >> >> > >> >> Not that this really would be avoidable with any short word (all > >the > >> >> short possible words are usually taken), but it's not neutral. > >> >> > >> >>> On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 2:43 PM, Oliver Egginger > > > >> wrote: > >> >>> Hello, > >> >>> > >> >>> just my two 'cents': > >> >>> > >> >>> Terms arises by itself. Just as most people speak of coins when > >they > >> >>> mean bitcoins. I do not see that bitcoin is currently in common > >use > >> >>> except for speculation. Therefore no term for smaller units has > >> >>> established yet. No problem in my eyes. Time will tell. > >> >>> > >> >>> - oliver > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------ > >> >>> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book > >> >>> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases > >and > >> their > >> >>> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, > >> >>> this first edition is now available. Download your free book > >today! > >> >>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech > >> >>> _______________________________________________ > >> >>> Bitcoin-development mailing list > >> >>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > >> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > >> >> > >> >> > >> > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------ > >> >> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book > >> >> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases > >and > >> their > >> >> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, > >> >> this first edition is now available. Download your free book > >today! > >> >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech > >> >> _______________________________________________ > >> >> Bitcoin-development mailing list > >> >> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > >> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > ------------------------------ > >> > > >> > Message: 5 > >> > Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 20:16:35 -0400 > >> > From: Justin A > >> > Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] "bits": Unit of account > >> > To: Mike Caldwell > >> > Cc: Bitcoin Development > >> > Message-ID: > >> > < > >> CAK2MuX3GufxU_AH0Kaw3pUkzgX_agok86ahCh+7r96UkxZwneQ@mail.gmail.com> > >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8" > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > What about "ubit", pronounced "YOU-bit", representing 1e-6 bitcoin? > >Easy > >> to > >> > say, tied in a visual way to the metric micro, leaves the required > >2 > >> > decimal places for the marginally numerate.. What more could one > >want? > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Also, hi. My first post; plan to get involved over the southern > >> hemisphere > >> > winter if I can learn enough. > >> > On Apr 20, 2014 4:32 PM, "Mike Caldwell" > >> wrote: > >> > > >> >> By culturally neutral I mean we avoid deliberately invoking a > >cultural > >> >> reference in the name. For example "satoshi" would be a reference > >to > >> >> Japanese culture just for being a common Japanese name regardless > >of who > >> >> Satoshi turns out to be. > >> >> > >> >> Mike > >> >> > >> >> Sent from my iPhone > >> >> > >> >>> On Apr 20, 2014, at 1:20 PM, "Christophe Biocca" < > >> >> christophe.biocca@gmail.com> wrote: > >> >>> > >> >>> Culturally neutral? "bit" in French phonetically collides with > >slang > >> >>> for phallus ("bitte", with a silent "e"). Apparently it means > >"louse" > >> >>> in Turkish as well. > >> >>> > >> >>> Not that this really would be avoidable with any short word (all > >the > >> >>> short possible words are usually taken), but it's not neutral. > >> >>> > >> >>>> On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 2:43 PM, Oliver Egginger > > > >> >> wrote: > >> >>>> Hello, > >> >>>> > >> >>>> just my two 'cents': > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Terms arises by itself. Just as most people speak of coins when > >they > >> >>>> mean bitcoins. I do not see that bitcoin is currently in common > >use > >> >>>> except for speculation. Therefore no term for smaller units has > >> >>>> established yet. No problem in my eyes. Time will tell. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> - oliver > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >> > >> > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------ > >> >>>> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book > >> >>>> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases > >and > >> >> their > >> >>>> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, > >> >>>> this first edition is now available. Download your free book > >today! > >> >>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech > >> >>>> _______________________________________________ > >> >>>> Bitcoin-development mailing list > >> >>>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > >> >>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >> > >> > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------ > >> >>> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book > >> >>> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases > >and > >> >> their > >> >>> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, > >> >>> this first edition is now available. Download your free book > >today! > >> >>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech > >> >>> _______________________________________________ > >> >>> Bitcoin-development mailing list > >> >>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > >> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------ > >> >> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book > >> >> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases > >and > >> their > >> >> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, > >> >> this first edition is now available. Download your free book > >today! > >> >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech > >> >> _______________________________________________ > >> >> Bitcoin-development mailing list > >> >> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > >> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > >> >> > >> > -------------- next part -------------- > >> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > >> > > >> > ------------------------------ > >> > > >> > > >> > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------ > >> > Start Your Social Network Today - Download eXo Platform > >> > Build your Enterprise Intranet with eXo Platform Software > >> > Java Based Open Source Intranet - Social, Extensible, Cloud Ready > >> > Get Started Now And Turn Your Intranet Into A Collaboration > >Platform > >> > http://p.sf.net/sfu/ExoPlatform > >> > > >> > ------------------------------ > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > Bitcoin-development mailing list > >> > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > >> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > >> > > >> > > >> > End of Bitcoin-development Digest, Vol 35, Issue 72 > >> > *************************************************** > >> > >> > >> > >> > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------ > >> Start Your Social Network Today - Download eXo Platform > >> Build your Enterprise Intranet with eXo Platform Software > >> Java Based Open Source Intranet - Social, Extensible, Cloud Ready > >> Get Started Now And Turn Your Intranet Into A Collaboration Platform > >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/ExoPlatform > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Bitcoin-development mailing list > >> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > >> > >> > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------ > >Start Your Social Network Today - Download eXo Platform > >Build your Enterprise Intranet with eXo Platform Software > >Java Based Open Source Intranet - Social, Extensible, Cloud Ready > >Get Started Now And Turn Your Intranet Into A Collaboration Platform > >http://p.sf.net/sfu/ExoPlatform > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Bitcoin-development mailing list > >Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > >https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: APG v1.1.1 > > iQFQBAEBCAA6BQJTVJlDMxxQZXRlciBUb2RkIChsb3cgc2VjdXJpdHkga2V5KSA8 > cGV0ZUBwZXRlcnRvZGQub3JnPgAKCRAZnIM7qOfwhTbNB/4lHTsUN/iee7H0UyBn > +TDRgf1BSoUx9HP+vtwXzS0JkVQoxoB5x4Pls+ex7qIXGNxdG9EPYi1RqQ5A8RUo > X2ntOL2pj6qTmW4aYxqqyihiQayLs5ixHPmJxqHv343g5ekqsKmBeDuWR4hXjUyZ > 0Pfcp40Xd3eJ38dSbq98letl5eD+ryBPKYtb91Trumqa9S0WB8kw9IqNaXjlpfG1 > lYuaVEllpaLpZW+4cx1mlPneS1GmLvloWhXf4Qh4X39VXECAjOAmNKh1atJCyT7H > ugkOcx1F2Rxo5P3jNzBRJKyAD96sbOhKm4sX7rzSjhT3WJgyHtJm3wkeluDCOVbR > QZqK > =3DR7Tv > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- > Start Your Social Network Today - Download eXo Platform > Build your Enterprise Intranet with eXo Platform Software > Java Based Open Source Intranet - Social, Extensible, Cloud Ready > Get Started Now And Turn Your Intranet Into A Collaboration Platform > http://p.sf.net/sfu/ExoPlatform > _______________________________________________ > Bitcoin-development mailing list > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > --14dae934128554a94204f7862738 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Of c= ourse, in reality smaller miners can just mine on top of block=20 headers and include no transactions and do no validation, but that is=20 extremely harmful to the security of Bitcoin.

If it's only during the few seconds that it takes to to verify the block,= =20 then would this really be that big of a deal?=C2=A0 E.g. even if all miners= =20 did this, a 10 second delay would only yield an average of a couple=20 blind/empty blocks per day.


On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 10:06 PM, Peter Todd <pete@p= etertodd.org> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

That is mistaken: you can't mine on top of just a block header, leaving= small miners disadvantaged as they are earning no profit while they wait f= or the information to validate the block and update their UTXO sets. This r= esults in the same problem as before, as the large pools who mine most bloc= ks can validate either instantly - the self-mine case - or more quickly tha= n the smaller miners.

Of course, in reality smaller miners can just mine on top of block headers = and include no transactions and do no validation, but that is extremely har= mful to the security of Bitcoin.


On 20 April 2014 23:58:58 GMT-04:00, Mark Friedenbach <mark@monetize.io> wrote:
>As soon as we switch to headers
>first - which will be soon - there will be no difference in propagation=
>time no matter how large the block is. Only 80 bites will be required >to
>propagate the block header which establishes priority for when the
>block is
>fully validated.
>On Apr 20, 2014 6:56 PM, "Jonathan Levin"
><jonathan.levin@sant= .ox.ac.uk>
>wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I am a post-graduate economist writing a paper on the incentives o= f
>> mining. Even though this issue has been debated in the forums, I >think it
>> is important to get a sense of the magnitude of the incentives at<= br> >play and
>> determine what implications this has for the transaction fee marke= t.
>>
>> As it has been pointed out before the marginal cost for miners doe= s
>not
>> stem from the private cost of the miner validating the signature a= nd
>> including it in the list of transactions in the block but rather t= he
>> increased probability that the block will be orphaned as a result = of
>slower
>> propagation. Gavin did some back of the envelope worst case
>calculations
>> but these overstated the effect of propagation delay. The reason >being the
>> 80ms additional time to reach 50% of the network is spread through= out
>the
>> time that it takes to reach 50% of the network. During this time >miners are
>> notified about the block and treat it as the longest chain and hen= ce
>are no
>> longer mining with the aim to produce a competing block.
>>
>> I am looking to calculate the change in the curvature of the
>probability
>> mass function that a block hears about my block in any given secon= d
>as a
>> function of the block size. Although there is likely to be
>significant
>> noise here, there seems to be some stable linear relationships wit= h
>the
>> time that it takes to reach different quartiles. Has anyone done >this? I
>> have used some empirical data that I am happy to share but ideally= I
>would
>> like analytical solutions.
>>
>> Following Peter Todd, I also find the concerning result that
>propagation
>> delays results in increasing returns to higher shares of the hashi= ng
>power.
>> Indeed it may well be in the interest of large pools to publish la= rge
>> blocks to increase propagation delays on the network which would >increase
>> orphan rates particularly for small miners and miners that have no= t
>> invested in sufficient bandwidth / connectivity. If a small miner<= br> >hears
>> about a block after 4.5 seconds on average there is a 0.7% chance<= br> >that
>> there is already a block in circulation. =C2=A0Large miners can in= crease
>the
>> time that it takes for small miners to hear about blocks by
>increasing the
>> size of their blocks. For example if the time that it takes for a<= br> >small
>> miner to hear about the block goes to 12 seconds there is a 2 perc= ent
>> chance there is already a block in circulation for the small miner= .
>There
>> is also a 1.2% chance that there will be a competing block publish= ed
>after
>> a small miner propagates in the time that it gets to full
>propagation. Am I
>> getting this right that the probability of a miner=E2=80=99s block= being
>orphaned
>> is comprised of the probability that the miner was not the first t= o
>find a
>> valid block and the probability that given they are first, someone=
>else in
>> the absence of hearing about it finds a competing valid block.
>>
>> One question is: Are orphans probabilistic and only resolved after=
>hearing
>> about a new block that lengthens the chain or is there a way to kn= ow
>in
>> advance? Is it frowned upon to mine on top of a block that you hav= e
>just
>> found even though it is very likely going to end up an orphan?
>>
>> Would be happy to share the draft form of the paper and receive an= y
>> feedback.
>>
>> Finally, at coinometrics we are working on a modified client to >capture
>> information on network propagation and would invite any suggestion= s
>of any
>> other useful statistics that would be useful in the development of=
>software.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Jonathan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 21 Apr 2014, at 01:16, <
>> bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net> <
>> bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote:
>>
>> > Send Bitcoin-development mailing list submissions to
>> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
>> >
>> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>> >
>https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoi= n-development
>> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help&= #39; to
>> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.= net
>> >
>> > You can reach the person managing the list at
>> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 bitcoin-development-owner@lists.sourceforge.net<= /a>
>> >
>> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more sp= ecific
>> > than "Re: Contents of Bitcoin-development digest..."= ;
>> >
>> >
>> > Today's Topics:
>> >
>> > =C2=A0 1. Re: "bits": Unit of account (Oliver Eggin= ger)
>> > =C2=A0 2. Re: "bits": Unit of account (Christophe B= iocca)
>> > =C2=A0 3. Re: "bits": Unit of account (Gmail)
>> > =C2=A0 4. Re: "bits": Unit of account (Mike Caldwel= l)
>> > =C2=A0 5. Re: "bits": Unit of account (Justin A) >> >
>> >
>> >
>----------------------------------------------------------------------<= br> >> >
>> > Message: 1
>> > Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 20:43:24 +0200
>> > From: Oliver Egginger <bitcoin@olivere.de>
>> > Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] "bits": Unit of = account
>> > To: Bitcoin Development <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net&g= t;
>> > Message-ID: <5354154C.1080908@olivere.de>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1
>> >
>> > Hello,
>> >
>> > just my two 'cents':
>> >
>> > Terms arises by itself. Just as most people speak of coins wh= en
>they
>> > mean bitcoins. I do not see that bitcoin is currently in comm= on use
>> > except for speculation. Therefore no term for smaller units h= as
>> > established yet. No problem in my eyes. Time will tell.
>> >
>> > - oliver
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 2
>> > Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 15:19:38 -0400
>> > From: Christophe Biocca <christophe.biocca@gmail.com>
>> > Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] "bits": Unit of = account
>> > To: Bitcoin Development <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net&g= t;
>> > Message-ID:
>> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <CANOOu=3D9=3D
>> TAnaCuyh_P2GqHaguyY39xjhj84HSA_x+6F4MOqM_A@mail.gmail.com&= gt;
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUTF-8
>> >
>> > Culturally neutral? "bit" in French phonetically co= llides with
>slang
>> > for phallus ("bitte", with a silent "e").= Apparently it means
>"louse"
>> > in Turkish as well.
>> >
>> > Not that this really would be avoidable with any short word (= all
>the
>> > short possible words are usually taken), but it's not neu= tral.
>> >
>> > On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 2:43 PM, Oliver Egginger
><bitcoin@olivere.de> >> wrote:
>> >> Hello,
>> >>
>> >> just my two 'cents':
>> >>
>> >> Terms arises by itself. Just as most people speak of coin= s when
>they
>> >> mean bitcoins. I do not see that bitcoin is currently in = common
>use
>> >> except for speculation. Therefore no term for smaller uni= ts has
>> >> established yet. No problem in my eyes. Time will tell. >> >>
>> >> - oliver
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------= -------
>> >> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book >> >> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide t= o graph databases
>and
>> their
>> >> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the f= ield,
>> >> this first edition is now available. Download your free b= ook
>today!
>> >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> >> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
>> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/l= istinfo/bitcoin-development
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 3
>> > Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 14:32:26 -0500
>> > From: Gmail <will.= yager@gmail.com>
>> > Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] "bits": Unit of = account
>> > Cc: Bitcoin Development <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net&g= t;
>> > Message-ID: <B687D4AD-263F-4594-BE7A-FF238B8DF7AF@gmail.com>=
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii"
>> >
>> > People in the Bitcoin community are sometimes resistant to th= e idea
>of
>> using the word "credit" as a unit of Bitcoin, because Bi= tcoin is not
>a
>> credit-based system.
>> >
>> > However, given that the average person has close to no
>understanding of
>> what "credit" means, and probably no concern for the dis= tinction even
>if
>> they do know, it may be wise to use the futuristic and easily
>> understandable "credit" as our human-friendly unit.
>> >
>> > Do others agree that "credits" as a unit of account= has a desirable
>> futuristic connotation?
>> >
>> > Will
>> >
>> > -------------- next part --------------
>> > A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
>> > Name: smime.p7s
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>> > Size: 1593 bytes
>> > Desc: not available
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 4
>> > Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 16:28:34 -0400
>> > From: Mike Caldwell <mcaldwell@swipeclock.com>
>> > Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] "bits": Unit of = account
>> > To: Christophe Biocca <christophe.biocca@gmail.com>
>> > Cc: Bitcoin Development <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net&g= t;
>> > Message-ID: <4098C706-D67F-474E-9C13-E4C8F56B41ED@swipeclock.c= om>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii"
>> >
>> > By culturally neutral I mean we avoid deliberately invoking a=
>cultural
>> reference in the name. =C2=A0For example "satoshi" would= be a reference to
>> Japanese culture just for being a common Japanese name regardless = of
>who
>> Satoshi turns out to be.
>> >
>> > Mike
>> >
>> > Sent from my iPhone
>> >
>> >> On Apr 20, 2014, at 1:20 PM, "Christophe Biocca"= ; <
>> christophe.biocca@g= mail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Culturally neutral? "bit" in French phoneticall= y collides with
>slang
>> >> for phallus ("bitte", with a silent "e&quo= t;). Apparently it means
>"louse"
>> >> in Turkish as well.
>> >>
>> >> Not that this really would be avoidable with any short wo= rd (all
>the
>> >> short possible words are usually taken), but it's not= neutral.
>> >>
>> >>> On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 2:43 PM, Oliver Egginger
><bitcoin@olivere.de> >> wrote:
>> >>> Hello,
>> >>>
>> >>> just my two 'cents':
>> >>>
>> >>> Terms arises by itself. Just as most people speak of = coins when
>they
>> >>> mean bitcoins. I do not see that bitcoin is currently= in common
>use
>> >>> except for speculation. Therefore no term for smaller= units has
>> >>> established yet. No problem in my eyes. Time will tel= l.
>> >>>
>> >>> - oliver
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------= -------
>> >>> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Bo= ok
>> >>> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new gui= de to graph databases
>and
>> their
>> >>> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in t= he field,
>> >>> this first edition is now available. Download your fr= ee book
>today!
>> >>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> >>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
>> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lis= ts/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------= -------
>> >> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book >> >> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide t= o graph databases
>and
>> their
>> >> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the f= ield,
>> >> this first edition is now available. Download your free b= ook
>today!
>> >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> >> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
>> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/l= istinfo/bitcoin-development
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 5
>> > Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 20:16:35 -0400
>> > From: Justin A <allpo= rt@gmail.com>
>> > Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] "bits": Unit of = account
>> > To: Mike Caldwell <mcaldwell@swipeclock.com>
>> > Cc: Bitcoin Development <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net&g= t;
>> > Message-ID:
>> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <
>> CAK2MuX3GufxU_AH0Kaw3pUkzgX_agok86ahCh+7r96UkxZwneQ@m= ail.gmail.com>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8"
>> >
>> > <delurk>
>> >
>> > What about "ubit", pronounced "YOU-bit", = representing 1e-6 bitcoin?
>Easy
>> to
>> > say, tied in a visual way to the metric micro, leaves the req= uired
>2
>> > decimal places for the marginally numerate.. What more could = one
>want?
>> >
>> > </delurk>
>> >
>> > Also, hi. My first post; plan to get involved over the southe= rn
>> hemisphere
>> > winter if I can learn enough.
>> > On Apr 20, 2014 4:32 PM, "Mike Caldwell" <mcaldwell@swipeclock.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >> By culturally neutral I mean we avoid deliberately invoki= ng a
>cultural
>> >> reference in the name. =C2=A0For example "satoshi&qu= ot; would be a reference
>to
>> >> Japanese culture just for being a common Japanese name re= gardless
>of who
>> >> Satoshi turns out to be.
>> >>
>> >> Mike
>> >>
>> >> Sent from my iPhone
>> >>
>> >>> On Apr 20, 2014, at 1:20 PM, "Christophe Biocca&= quot; <
>> >> christophe= .biocca@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Culturally neutral? "bit" in French phoneti= cally collides with
>slang
>> >>> for phallus ("bitte", with a silent "e= "). Apparently it means
>"louse"
>> >>> in Turkish as well.
>> >>>
>> >>> Not that this really would be avoidable with any shor= t word (all
>the
>> >>> short possible words are usually taken), but it's= not neutral.
>> >>>
>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 2:43 PM, Oliver Egginger<= br> ><bitcoin@olivere.de> >> >> wrote:
>> >>>> Hello,
>> >>>>
>> >>>> just my two 'cents':
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Terms arises by itself. Just as most people speak= of coins when
>they
>> >>>> mean bitcoins. I do not see that bitcoin is curre= ntly in common
>use
>> >>>> except for speculation. Therefore no term for sma= ller units has
>> >>>> established yet. No problem in my eyes. Time will= tell.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> - oliver
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>
>>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------= -------
>> >>>> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reill= y Book
>> >>>> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new= guide to graph databases
>and
>> >> their
>> >>>> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders = in the field,
>> >>>> this first edition is now available. Download you= r free book
>today!
>> >>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech
>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> >>>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
>> >>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net= /lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------= -------
>> >>> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Bo= ok
>> >>> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new gui= de to graph databases
>and
>> >> their
>> >>> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in t= he field,
>> >>> this first edition is now available. Download your fr= ee book
>today!
>> >>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> >>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
>> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lis= ts/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------= -------
>> >> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book >> >> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide t= o graph databases
>and
>> their
>> >> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the f= ield,
>> >> this first edition is now available. Download your free b= ook
>today!
>> >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> >> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
>> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/l= istinfo/bitcoin-development
>> >>
>> > -------------- next part --------------
>> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> >
>>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------= -------
>> > Start Your Social Network Today - Download eXo Platform
>> > Build your Enterprise Intranet with eXo Platform Software
>> > Java Based Open Source Intranet - Social, Extensible, Cloud R= eady
>> > Get Started Now And Turn Your Intranet Into A Collaboration >Platform
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>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> > = Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listi= nfo/bitcoin-development
>> >
>> >
>> > End of Bitcoin-development Digest, Vol 35, Issue 72
>> > ***************************************************
>>
>>
>>
>>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------= -------
>> Start Your Social Network Today - Download eXo Platform
>> Build your Enterprise Intranet with eXo Platform Software
>> Java Based Open Source Intranet - Social, Extensible, Cloud Ready<= br> >> Get Started Now And Turn Your Intranet Into A Collaboration Platfo= rm
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>> _______________________________________________
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>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/b= itcoin-development
>>
>>
>
>
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>Build your Enterprise Intranet with eXo Platform Software
>Java Based Open Source Intranet - Social, Extensible, Cloud Ready
>Get Started Now And Turn Your Intranet Into A Collaboration Platform >http://p.= sf.net/sfu/ExoPlatform
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Start Your Social Network Today - Download eXo Platform
Build your Enterprise Intranet with eXo Platform Software
Java Based Open Source Intranet - Social, Extensible, Cloud Ready
Get Started Now And Turn Your Intranet Into A Collaboration Platform
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