Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.osuosl.org (smtp1.osuosl.org [IPv6:2605:bc80:3010::138]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAE9EC002A for ; Fri, 19 May 2023 23:15:41 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp1.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCDB183B1D for ; Fri, 19 May 2023 23:15:41 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp1.osuosl.org BCDB183B1D Authentication-Results: smtp1.osuosl.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=pm.me header.i=@pm.me header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=protonmail3 header.b=ja9jl/JT X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from smtp1.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp1.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id i42SQmfedfu6 for ; Fri, 19 May 2023 23:15:40 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: delayed 00:06:48 by SQLgrey-1.8.0 DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp1.osuosl.org 05E7F83B19 Received: from mail-41104.protonmail.ch (mail-41104.protonmail.ch [185.70.41.104]) by smtp1.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 05E7F83B19 for ; Fri, 19 May 2023 23:15:39 +0000 (UTC) Date: Fri, 19 May 2023 23:08:36 +0000 Authentication-Results: mail-41104.protonmail.ch; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=pm.me header.i=@pm.me header.b="ja9jl/JT" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=pm.me; s=protonmail3; t=1684537719; x=1684796919; bh=TmA6JKkFyC6eqXSuF/fwdlNaJ/JGX68kCGopJn6ukow=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References: Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID: Message-ID:BIMI-Selector; b=ja9jl/JTqeKUNsCv5ZbzK7Lq1rj2zwD1cTY7UckELLZMAuvQZuhsYYlU4o0HrTXjz qqjpuxceHZlTYmMqkiqHyjxUEIrUv0MyuIWV6QRcckTfBwQMQh1SC80m1Ye7gxXkPT NEZrfJ78O57De4FZgj3SbuoFW7/VXxkobd1O8zJCB+6dsAGL7lFya1dbr83K02MDNz eBthZyUNVqHa6skx6/nJ1nSsCssL53kk7UfIRfiDgwKTczW85YQZlW/S0EhX6BO2gB iuRWlUJkyZ1hYjaVMTysCTrlJ4VZ1oB8o5lp72AI0dQNAIZ4rDFzHVyQh+d3728PpB s/kqJNIdBI4rA== To: Keagan McClelland From: yurisvb@pm.me Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: Feedback-ID: 15605746:user:proton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256; boundary="------d6f3df41db0ac730f080ae4e5ce491aec82c2368fb69bd151609ed54ee54c649"; charset=utf-8 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 19 May 2023 23:23:50 +0000 Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Formosa --- proposed improvement upon BIP39 X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 May 2023 23:15:42 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------d6f3df41db0ac730f080ae4e5ce491aec82c2368fb69bd151609ed54ee54c649 Content-Type: multipart/mixed;boundary=---------------------d681409539662fc002c0780977e5928a -----------------------d681409539662fc002c0780977e5928a Content-Type: multipart/alternative;boundary=---------------------5c56665abaa5a18d7fcf245d7e51ccc9 -----------------------5c56665abaa5a18d7fcf245d7e51ccc9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8 Good day, Keagan and all! First of all, thank you for your feedback! Yes, I made it so that Formosa = does accomplish that: BIP39 is a particular case; a degenerate 'theme' in = which you have sentences of just 11 bits (instead of 33 in a typical Formo= sa sentence), and they are made up of just one (11 bits) word with no synt= actic structure. The sublist of possibilities for this one field does not = impact and is not impacted by any other (because there is no other). There= fore it is rather a list (without 'sub') and it consists of the original B= IP39 word list. In addition to that, we make it so that themes (including BIP39) are conve= rtible into one another. The conversion is straightforward: just map the w= ords back into the array of bits that originated it and derive the new see= d from it using the new theme. This is why I made sure to have sentences h= ave a number of bits multiple of 11. Moreover, in order to enable forwards= and backwards compatibility and facilitate adoption, we set the original = BIP39 as standard for key derivation. Meaning: in order to derive keys fro= m a seed, we first convert back to BIP39 and then proceed the KDF step as = originally specified in BIP39. This way legacy addresses can be kept even = if a user wants to choose a theme. Finally, as a bonus, one could argue th= at a hyper customization would allow for a(n additional, dispensable, non-= critical) layer of obscurity (which, therefore, wouldn't violate Kerckhoff= 's principle). Example: consider, for example, that a one hyper-customized= seed could be (just an extra tool) more easily stenographed in human spee= ch or written text. I hope this answers your objections concerning loss of standardization. Th= ank you for bringing about the issue of coercion resistance! Here is my re= sponse to that: a user willing to avoid the additional vulnerability to co= ercion that an effective brain wallet would ensue could just not put up th= e effort to memorize the seed for long term, and just take advantage of th= e easier transcription and checking (ie: short-term memorization). Right n= ow I could anticipate a response in the lines of "Such a format might as w= ell be so much easier to long-term memorize that a user either ends up doi= ng that accidentally, and/or the denial of that becomes less plausible.". = If that is the objection, well, thank you, and, however self-serving it is= my saying it, I tend to agree that that would,=C2=A0in fact,=C2=A0be the = case. My response to it is that: 1. knowledge-based authentication, whether or not for Bitcoin, still have= some properties that possession-based authentication doesn't. Whatever ma= ster password you memorize, in whatever context, you'd better have an effi= cient format, with uniformly high entropy density (and even possibly check= sum), and not having to resort to a silly meme about a staple, a battery a= nd a horse. 2. Mitigating the shortcomings of KBA can arguably be done better with 2F= A, instead of PBA. Having a superior format just as beneficial as before. 3. Once again, thank you for bringing up coercion resistance! I'd like to= point out to an elephant in the room: To this day, and to the best of my = knowledge there is no scheme, protocol or ceremony that simultaneously ach= ieves self-custody and coercion resistance with=C2=A0non-obscurity. IMHO t= his is an critical problem for various reasons and I'll be making a thread= about it shortly. Thank you again for your inputs and be my guest to further debate your poi= nts! I hope this could have been of help! Faithfully yours, Yuri S VB. ------- Original Message ------- On Friday, May 19th, 2023 at 11:24 PM, Keagan McClelland wrote: > Good day Yuri, > = > This is a very cool idea. After reviewing the repository it seems that t= here lacks a BIP style specification for this, so it is possible that some= of my takeaways may not be correct but I figured I'd comment with some ob= servations anyway. Feel free to correct me where I've made a mistake. > I think to make an idea like this work it would be necessary for it to "= extend" BIP39 rather than "replace" it. What I mean by this is that BIP39 = is heavily entrenched in the ecosystem and so in order for you to sidestep= the need to get everyone in the ecosystem to adopt a new standard, you'd = want this process to be able to output a standard BIP39 seed sequence. Thi= s becomes even more important when you allow these different "themes" that= are mentioned later in the document. The notion of themes practically pre= cludes the standardization of the technique since customization really is = the antithesis of standardization. > = > The largest value proposition of these schemes is that it allows signifi= cant wallet interoperability. This is achieved if process for translating = these phrases to the underlying wallet seed is deterministic. Themes may p= rove to make this harder to solve. I also do not believe that themes meani= ngfully increase the ability to remember the phrase: the fact that the phr= ase has a valid semantic at all is a massive step up from an undifferentia= ted sequence of words that is the current state of BIP39. The benefits aff= orded by the themes here are little by comparison. > = > Overall, I think exploring this idea further is a good idea. However, th= ere may be concerns about whether the increased memorability is a good thi= ng. It would certainly make $5 wrench attacks more viable, not less. I can= 't help but ask myself the question whether more Bitcoin is lost because o= f seed phrases not being memorized, or because of social engineering exerc= ises used to scrape these phrases from the brains of users. I have a hunch= that loss is a larger problem than theft, but it is a very real possibili= ty that a wide deployment of this type of tech could change that. > = > Stay Inspired, > Keags > = > On Tue, May 2, 2023 at 6:05=E2=80=AFAM Yuri S VB via bitcoin-dev wrote: > = > > Dear colleagues, > > The following is a password format that improves upon BIP39 by allowin= g meaningful, themed sentences with a regular grammatical structure instea= d of semantically disconnected words, while keeping the same entropy/check= sum and total bits/non-repeating leading digits ratios (of 32/1 and 11/4 r= espectively). > > = > > https://github.com/Yuri-SVB/formosa > > = > > Anecdotal experiments suggest that less than one hour of moderate conc= entration is enough for long term memorization of 128 + 4 bits (equivalent= to the 12 words standard of BIP39) if a theme of interest is employed. > > = > > I hereby offer it to your scrutiny as a Bitcoin Improvement Proposal. = Please don't hesitate to ask whatever issue about the project there might = be. > > = > > Faithfully yours, Yuri S VB. > > = > > _______________________________________________ > > bitcoin-dev mailing list > > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev -----------------------5c56665abaa5a18d7fcf245d7e51ccc9 Content-Type: multipart/related;boundary=---------------------57764dd1c0572812385d5fd937240793 -----------------------57764dd1c0572812385d5fd937240793 Content-Type: text/html;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PGRpdiBzdHlsZT0iZm9udC1mYW1pbHk6IEFyaWFsLCBzYW5zLXNlcmlmOyBmb250LXNpemU6IDE0 cHg7Ij5Hb29kIGRheSwgS2VhZ2FuIGFuZCBhbGwhPGJyPjxicj5GaXJzdCBvZiBhbGwsIHRoYW5r IHlvdSBmb3IgeW91ciBmZWVkYmFjayEgWWVzLCBJIG1hZGUgaXQgc28gdGhhdCBGb3Jtb3NhIGRv ZXMgYWNjb21wbGlzaCB0aGF0OiBCSVAzOSBpcyBhIHBhcnRpY3VsYXIgY2FzZTsgYSBkZWdlbmVy YXRlICd0aGVtZScgaW4gd2hpY2ggeW91IGhhdmUgc2VudGVuY2VzIG9mIGp1c3QgMTEgYml0cyAo 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