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From: Tao Effect <contact@taoeffect.com>
In-Reply-To: <CA+XQW1jf-6HCic4beV5GSix8KRzJ-7nTc-ePipfs=ouwvHX0jA@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2017 22:19:58 -0700
Message-Id: <55CAABF4-4FB8-4230-8E51-014C1D347D72@taoeffect.com>
References: <16D7672F-AA36-47D7-AAEF-E767B9CE09FF@taoeffect.com>
	<CA+XQW1jf-6HCic4beV5GSix8KRzJ-7nTc-ePipfs=ouwvHX0jA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Paul Sztorc <truthcoin@gmail.com>
Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Generalized sharding protocol for decentralized
 scaling without Miners owning our BTC
Precedence: list


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Paul,

It's a two-way peg.

There's nothing preventing transfers back to the main chain.

They work in the exact same manner.

Cheers,
Greg

--
Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also =
sharing with the NSA.

> On Oct 9, 2017, at 6:39 PM, Paul Sztorc <truthcoin@gmail.com =
<mailto:truthcoin@gmail.com>> wrote:
>=20
> That is only a one-way peg, not a two-way.
>=20
> In fact, that is exactly what drivechain does, if one chooses =
parameters for the drivechain that make it impossible for any =
side-to-main transfer to succeed.
>=20
> One-way pegs have strong first-mover disadvantages.
>=20
> Paul
>=20
> On Oct 9, 2017 9:24 PM, "Tao Effect via bitcoin-dev" =
<bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org =
<mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>> wrote:
> Dear list,
>=20
> In previous arguments over Drivechain (and Drivechain-like proposals) =
I promised that better scaling proposals =E2=80=94 that do not sacrifice =
Bitcoin's security =E2=80=94 would come along.
>=20
> I planned to do a detailed writeup, but have decided to just send off =
this email with what I have, because I'm unlikely to have time to write =
up a detailed proposal.
>=20
> The idea is very simple (and by no means novel*), and I'm sure others =
have mentioned either exactly it, or similar ideas (e.g. burning coins) =
before.
>=20
> This is a generic sharding protocol for all blockchains, including =
Bitcoin.
>=20
> Users simply say: "My coins on Chain A are going to be sent to Chain =
B".
>=20
> Then they burn the coins on Chain A, and create a minting transaction =
on Chain B. The details of how to ensure that coins do not get lost =
needs to be worked out, but I'm fairly certain the folks on this list =
can figure out those details.
>=20
> - Thin clients, nodes, and miners, can all very easily verify that =
said action took place, and therefore accept the "newly minted" coins on =
B as valid.
> - Users client software now also knows where to look for the other =
coins (if for some reason it needs to).
>=20
> This doesn't even need much modification to the Bitcoin protocol as =
most of the verification is done client-side.
>=20
> It is fully decentralized, and there's no need to give our ownership =
of our coins to miners to get scale.
>=20
> My sincere apologies if this has been brought up before (in which =
case, I would be very grateful for a link to the proposal).
>=20
> Cheers,
> Greg Slepak
>=20
> * This idea is similar in spirit to Interledger.
>=20
> --
> Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also =
sharing with the NSA.
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org =
<mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev =
<https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>
>=20
>=20


--Apple-Mail=_5CC46E5A-CDBA-4B5D-9966-A07FE1930A71
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Paul,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">It's =
a two-way peg.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">There's nothing preventing transfers back to the main =
chain.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">They =
work in the exact same manner.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Cheers,</div><div class=3D"">Greg<br =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-variant-ligatures: normal; =
font-variant-position: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; =
font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">--</span><br style=3D"color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-position: normal; =
font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; =
font-variant-east-asian: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; =
widows: 2;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-position: normal; =
font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; =
font-variant-east-asian: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; =
widows: 2;" class=3D"">Please do not email me anything that you are not =
comfortable also sharing</span><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-position: normal; =
font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; =
font-variant-east-asian: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; =
widows: 2;" class=3D"">&nbsp;with the NSA.</span>
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Oct 9, 2017, at 6:39 PM, Paul Sztorc &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:truthcoin@gmail.com" class=3D"">truthcoin@gmail.com</a>&gt;=
 wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><div class=3D"">That is only a one-way peg, not =
a two-way.</div><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
dir=3D"auto" class=3D"">In fact, that is exactly what drivechain does, =
if one chooses parameters for the drivechain that make it impossible for =
any side-to-main transfer to succeed.</div><div dir=3D"auto" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D"">One-way =
pegs have strong first-mover disadvantages.</div><div dir=3D"auto" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D"">Paul<br =
class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_extra" dir=3D"auto"><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote">On Oct 9, 2017 9:24 PM, "Tao Effect via =
bitcoin-dev" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" =
class=3D"">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br =
type=3D"attribution" class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"quote" =
style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc =
solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class=3D"">Dear list,<div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">In previous arguments =
over Drivechain (and Drivechain-like proposals) I promised that better =
scaling proposals =E2=80=94 that do not sacrifice Bitcoin's security =E2=80=
=94 would come along.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">I planned to do a detailed writeup, but have decided to just =
send off this email with what I have, because I'm unlikely to have time =
to write up a detailed proposal.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The idea is very simple (and by no =
means novel*), and I'm sure others have mentioned either exactly it, or =
similar ideas (e.g. burning coins) before.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">This is a generic sharding protocol for =
all blockchains, including Bitcoin.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Users simply say: "My coins on Chain A =
are going to be sent to Chain B".</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Then they burn the coins on Chain A, =
and create a minting transaction on Chain B. The details of how to =
ensure that coins do not get lost needs to be worked out, but I'm fairly =
certain the folks on this list can figure out those details.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">- Thin clients, nodes, =
and miners, can all very easily verify that said action took place, and =
therefore accept the "newly minted" coins on B as valid.</div><div =
class=3D"">- Users client software now also knows where to look for the =
other coins (if for some reason it needs to).</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">This doesn't even need much =
modification to the Bitcoin protocol as most of the verification is done =
client-side.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">It =
is fully decentralized, and there's no need to give our ownership of our =
coins to miners to get scale.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">My sincere apologies if this has been =
brought up before (in which case, I would be very grateful for a link to =
the proposal).</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Cheers,</div><div class=3D"">Greg Slepak</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">* This idea is similar =
in spirit to Interledger.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-numeric: =
normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: =
normal; line-height: normal;" class=3D"">--</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; font-variant-ligatures: normal; =
font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; =
font-variant-east-asian: normal; line-height: normal;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; font-variant-ligatures: normal; =
font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; =
font-variant-east-asian: normal; line-height: normal;" class=3D"">Please =
do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also =
sharing</span><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; =
font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; =
line-height: normal;" class=3D"">&nbsp;with the NSA.</span>
</div>

<br class=3D""></div></div></div></div><br =
class=3D"">______________________________<wbr =
class=3D"">_________________<br class=3D"">
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" =
class=3D"">bitcoin-dev@lists.<wbr class=3D"">linuxfoundation.org</a><br =
class=3D"">
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev"=
 rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://lists.linuxfoundation.<wbr =
class=3D"">org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-<wbr class=3D"">dev</a><br =
class=3D"">
<br class=3D""></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></div></div>
</div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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