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Fri, 11 Oct 2024 08:23:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a05:690c:d85:b0:64a:f237:e0b0 with SMTP id 00721157ae682-6e3477b9fedmr26712207b3.5.1728660225094; Fri, 11 Oct 2024 08:23:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 2002:a05:690c:46c9:b0:6d6:77c4:ed15 with SMTP id 00721157ae682-6e31f00567dms7b3; Fri, 11 Oct 2024 08:01:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a05:690c:7790:b0:6e3:220e:90dd with SMTP id 00721157ae682-6e347b2f5e5mr18381087b3.35.1728658912373; Fri, 11 Oct 2024 08:01:52 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2024 08:01:52 -0700 (PDT) From: waxwing/ AdamISZ <ekaggata@gmail.com> To: Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com> Message-Id: <9682d905-886c-4deb-924c-6461f4b67537n@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: <51ac4b01-f2d3-4932-9d00-1c9be0875f96n@googlegroups.com> References: <a647a2e2-2742-4b0e-ae84-6f84b018136fn@googlegroups.com> <ZtcIDJkfQp7uh+Kj@petertodd.org> <CALZpt+EM1ysYErpGneuP_d+MjhQcaG7d2_EtRm2WYGFfLYuBsA@mail.gmail.com> <51ac4b01-f2d3-4932-9d00-1c9be0875f96n@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Demonstrating Pinning Attacks under Real-World Conditions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_3964_1363283815.1728658912116" X-Original-Sender: ekaggata@gmail.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: <bitcoindev.googlegroups.com> X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/post>, <mailto:bitcoindev@googlegroups.com> List-Help: <https://groups.google.com/support/>, <mailto:bitcoindev+help@googlegroups.com> List-Archive: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev List-Subscribe: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/subscribe>, <mailto:bitcoindev+subscribe@googlegroups.com> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:googlegroups-manage+786775582512+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>, <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/subscribe> X-Spam-Score: -0.4 (/) ------=_Part_3964_1363283815.1728658912116 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_3965_830052607.1728658912116" ------=_Part_3965_830052607.1728658912116 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Antoine, Perhaps it would be an idea to write a gist or some other public facing=20 page with what you need from volunteers, so it's kind of step by step? Unlike Peter in this thread, I think most people would want/have to set up= =20 new nodes to do this. You have said: Current and default installs of Core/btcd + lnd/cln/ldk . I= =20 know that e.g. Core has some pretty non-trivial choices but I guess we can= =20 stick religiously to whatever is default. But other details like: amount in channels - does it matter? How many channels? Channels of specific types (thinking e.g. unannounced) Should volunteers have channels with each other? is there any aspect of=20 topology you require? Network connectivity - I guess it's not important, but just in case worth= =20 mentioning, e.g. should/should not use Tor etc. Forgive me if some of the questions are ignorant, I have not paid a ton of= =20 attention to the discussion around these attacks. waxwing/AdamISZ On Thursday, October 10, 2024 at 6:29:02=E2=80=AFPM UTC-6 Antoine Riard wro= te: > Hi all, > > > If you have an on-chain donation address on the OTS website (?), I'll= =20 > make a > > $100 donation now, it's a nice tool. And for the justice=20 > transaction...well > > for some scenarios you can use the latest valid commitment state to pin= =20 > no risk > > of being slashed by a justice transaction. > > Been late on demonstrating a real-world pinning attack against a=20 > production lightning > node. But I swear it's real sport having to jungle with more than one=20 > category of > exploit to soundly test. > > OTS is a great project. I'll make a donation to it of 1 gram of gold or= =20 > the equivalent > in fiats or satoshis at settlement (as $100 sounds to be almost equal to = 1=20 > gram of gold, > i.e $84.66 those days) for each month late on doing a demonstrationg of= =20 > real-world pinning > attack, as a lateness penalty. > > Beyond it's a great tool to make notarization of any kind of digital info= ,=20 > inside the > chain where for every block there are probably two-digit terawatt hours= =20 > burnt, which > starts to be a f*cking lot of hydro power plants. > > More generally, I called since late 2020 at least for making real-world= =20 > demonstration > of pinning attacks against lightning nodes, among others types of=20 > cross-layers attacks, > At the exception of 2 ligthning protocol devs if my memory is correct, al= l=20 > the others > ones since then have shunned away from participating in a real-world demo= ,=20 > and Peter > Todd was the first one to consent and make available a lightning node=20 > available for > real-world demos in a "black box" fashion (indeed, it's far easier to=20 > execute exploits > on testing envs fully set by the researcher...). > > In the future, I believe it can only be great if bitcoin security exploit= s=20 > are gauged > more or less on the lines of artifacts available, evaluated and=20 > reproduced, as done=20 > usually by major infosec confs. > > Best, > Antoine > ots hash: 9d227f7832154c4c8bce9fce260ac84537489c1bc8c4b8c2ba990ceb197c84f= c > Le mardi 3 septembre 2024 =C3=A0 21:13:46 UTC+1, Antoine Riard a =C3=A9cr= it : > >> > That also happens to be my Alice OpenTimestamps calendar, in=20 >> production, so >> > please don't do anything you expect to be CPU or RAM intensive. But if= =20 >> you >> > accidentally take down the server, not the end of the world: OTS is a= =20 >> very >> > redundant protocol and one calendar going down for a few hours is=20 >> unlikely to >> > do any harm. >> >=20 >> > It has about $400 of outgoing capacity at the moment, and $2000=20 >> inbound. It >> > gets hardly any donations at the moment, so if you manage to knock LND= =20 >> offline >> > that's no big deal. >> >=20 >> > That's not my money - it's donations to the OTS calendars that I have= =20 >> no right >> > to spend - so I'll ask you to pay for any expenses incurred by it duri= ng >> > testing, and make a $100 net donation when you're done testing to make= =20 >> it >> > worthwhile for the OTS community. If you manage to lose more than that= =20 >> on >> > justice transactions, I'll consider that a donation. :) >> >> Many thanks Peter for that. >> >> No worries, I won't play with CPU or RAM, it's just all the=20 >> transaction-relay >> and mempool logic that one can interfere with. I'll make you whole of th= e=20 >> $2400 >> if the LND node goes down too hard, though I'm just looking for a node= =20 >> running >> on mainnet, for a pinning the attacker has two open to channels and=20 >> re-balance >> the liquidity at its advantage a bit. I'll provide the liquidity by=20 >> myself. >> >> If you have an on-chain donation address on the OTS website (?), I'll=20 >> make a >> $100 donation now, it's a nice tool. And for the justice=20 >> transaction...well >> for some scenarios you can use the latest valid commitment state to pin= =20 >> no risk >> of being slashed by a justice transaction. >> >> Best, >> Antoine >> ots hash: 19d9b61ed5238e2922205a0a0194e0830b260a691f45b4189b1d145f72c9e0= 31 >> >> Le mar. 3 sept. 2024 =C3=A0 13:58, Peter Todd <pe...@petertodd.org> a = =C3=A9crit : >> >>> On Tue, Aug 27, 2024 at 02:10:15PM -0700, Antoine Riard wrote: >>> > My utmost pleasure to demonstrate some pinning attacks on nodes under= =20 >>> > real-world conditions. >>> >>> Antoine Riard: until Oct 1st, you have permission to test your attacks= =20 >>> against >>> my Lightning node running at: >>> >>> 023345274dd80a01c0e80ec4892818878...@alice.opentimestamps.org:9735= =20 >>> <http://023345274dd80a01c0e80ec48928188783f9bc5281be8f5057c050492f10711= a5b@alice.opentimestamps.org:9735> >>> >>> That also happens to be my Alice OpenTimestamps calendar, in production= ,=20 >>> so >>> please don't do anything you expect to be CPU or RAM intensive. But if= =20 >>> you >>> accidentally take down the server, not the end of the world: OTS is a= =20 >>> very >>> redundant protocol and one calendar going down for a few hours is=20 >>> unlikely to >>> do any harm. >>> >>> It has about $400 of outgoing capacity at the moment, and $2000 inbound= .=20 >>> It >>> gets hardly any donations at the moment, so if you manage to knock LND= =20 >>> offline >>> that's no big deal. >>> >>> That's not my money - it's donations to the OTS calendars that I have n= o=20 >>> right >>> to spend - so I'll ask you to pay for any expenses incurred by it durin= g >>> testing, and make a $100 net donation when you're done testing to make = it >>> worthwhile for the OTS community. If you manage to lose more than that = on >>> justice transactions, I'll consider that a donation. :) >>> >>> --=20 >>> https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org >>> >> --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/= bitcoindev/9682d905-886c-4deb-924c-6461f4b67537n%40googlegroups.com. ------=_Part_3965_830052607.1728658912116 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div>Antoine,</div><div><br /></div><div>Perhaps it would be an idea to wri= te a gist or some other public facing page with what you need from voluntee= rs, so it's kind of step by step?</div><div>Unlike Peter in this thread, I = think most people would want/have to set up new nodes to do this.<br /></di= v><div><br /></div><div>You have said: Current and default installs of Core= /btcd + lnd/cln/ldk . I know that e.g. Core has some pretty non-trivial cho= ices but I guess we can stick religiously to whatever is default.<br /></di= v><div><br /></div><div>But other details like:</div><div>amount in channel= s - does it matter?</div><div>How many channels? Channels of specific types= (thinking e.g. unannounced)</div><div>Should volunteers have channels with= each other? is there any aspect of topology you require?</div><div>Network= connectivity - I guess it's not important, but just in case worth mentioni= ng, e.g. should/should not use Tor etc.</div><div><br /></div><div>Forgive = me if some of the questions are ignorant, I have not paid a ton of attentio= n to the discussion around these attacks.<br /></div><div><br /></div>waxwi= ng/AdamISZ<br /><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D"gmail= _attr">On Thursday, October 10, 2024 at 6:29:02=E2=80=AFPM UTC-6 Antoine Ri= ard wrote:<br/></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0 0= 0 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">Hi= all,<br><br>> If you have an on-chain donation address on the OTS websi= te (?), I'll make a<br>> $100 donation now, it's a nice tool. An= d for the justice transaction...well<br>> for some scenarios you can use= the latest valid commitment state to pin no risk<br>> of being slashed = by a justice transaction.<br><br>Been late on demonstrating a real-world pi= nning attack against a production lightning<br>node. But I swear it's r= eal sport having to jungle with more than one category of<br>exploit to sou= ndly test.<br><br>OTS is a great project. I'll make a donation to it of= 1 gram of gold or the equivalent<br>in fiats or satoshis at settlement (as= $100 sounds to be almost equal to 1 gram of gold,<br>i.e $84.66 those days= ) for each month late on doing a demonstrationg of real-world pinning<br>at= tack, as a lateness penalty.<br><br>Beyond it's a great tool to make no= tarization of any kind of digital info, inside the<br>chain where for every= block there are probably two-digit terawatt hours burnt, which<br>starts t= o be a f*cking lot of hydro power plants.<br><br>More generally, I called s= ince late 2020 at least for making real-world demonstration<br>of pinning a= ttacks against lightning nodes, among others types of cross-layers attacks,= <br>At the exception of 2 ligthning protocol devs if my memory is correct, = all the others<br>ones since then have shunned away from participating in a= real-world demo, and Peter<br>Todd was the first one to consent and make a= vailable a lightning node available for<br>real-world demos in a "blac= k box" fashion (indeed, it's far easier to execute exploits<br>on = testing envs fully set by the researcher...).<br><br>In the future, I belie= ve it can only be great if bitcoin security exploits are gauged<br>more or = less on the lines of artifacts available, evaluated and reproduced, as done= <br>usually by major infosec confs.<br><br>Best,<br>Antoine<br>ots hash: 9= d227f7832154c4c8bce9fce260ac84537489c1bc8c4b8c2ba990ceb197c84fc<br><div cla= ss=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D"gmail_attr">Le mardi 3 septem= bre 2024 =C3=A0 21:13:46 UTC+1, Antoine Riard a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:<br></div>= <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 0.8ex;border-left:1= px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">> That also= happens to be my Alice OpenTimestamps calendar, in production, so<br>> = please don't do anything you expect to be CPU or RAM intensive. But if = you<br>> accidentally take down the server, not the end of the world: OT= S is a very<br>> redundant protocol and one calendar going down for a fe= w hours is unlikely to<br>> do any harm.<br>> <br>> It has about $= 400 of outgoing capacity at the moment, and $2000 inbound. It<br>> gets = hardly any donations at the moment, so if you manage to knock LND offline<b= r>> that's no big deal.<br>> <br>> That's not my money - i= t's donations to the OTS calendars that I have no right<br>> to spen= d - so I'll ask you to pay for any expenses incurred by it during<br>&g= t; testing, and make a $100 net donation when you're done testing to ma= ke it<br>> worthwhile for the OTS community. If you manage to lose more = than that on<br>> justice transactions, I'll consider that a donatio= n. :)<br><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">Many thanks Peter for that.<br><br>No w= orries, I won't play with CPU or RAM, it's just all the transaction= -relay<br>and mempool logic that one can interfere with. I'll make you = whole of the $2400<br>if the LND node goes down too hard, though I'm ju= st looking for a node running<br>on mainnet, for a pinning the attacker has= two open to channels and re-balance<br>the liquidity at its advantage a bi= t. I'll provide the liquidity by myself.<br><br>If you have an on-chain= donation address on the OTS website (?), I'll make a<br>$100 donation = now, it's a nice tool. And for the justice transaction...well<br>for so= me scenarios you can use the latest valid commitment state to pin no risk<b= r>of being slashed by a justice transaction.<br><br>Best,<br>Antoine<br>ots= hash: 19d9b61ed5238e2922205a0a0194e0830b260a691f45b4189b1d145f72c9e031<br>= </div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">= Le=C2=A0mar. 3 sept. 2024 =C3=A0=C2=A013:58, Peter Todd <<a rel=3D"nofol= low">pe...@petertodd.org</a>> a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:<br></div><blockquote c= lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1p= x;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1= ex">On Tue, Aug 27, 2024 at 02:10:15PM -0700, Antoine Riard wrote:<br> > My utmost pleasure to demonstrate some pinning attacks on nodes under = <br> > real-world conditions.<br> <br> Antoine Riard: until Oct 1st, you have permission to test your attacks agai= nst<br> my Lightning node running at:<br> <br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"http://023345274dd80a01c0e80ec48928188783f9bc5281b= e8f5057c050492f10711a5b@alice.opentimestamps.org:9735" rel=3D"noreferrer no= follow" target=3D"_blank" data-saferedirecturl=3D"https://www.google.com/ur= l?hl=3Den&q=3Dhttp://023345274dd80a01c0e80ec48928188783f9bc5281be8f5057= c050492f10711a5b@alice.opentimestamps.org:9735&source=3Dgmail&ust= =3D1728744712253000&usg=3DAOvVaw127VDKb-dISVrO7VEc7ONq">023345274dd80a0= 1c0e80ec4892818878...@alice.opentimestamps.org:9735</a><br> <br> That also happens to be my Alice OpenTimestamps calendar, in production, so= <br> please don't do anything you expect to be CPU or RAM intensive. But if = you<br> accidentally take down the server, not the end of the world: OTS is a very<= br> redundant protocol and one calendar going down for a few hours is unlikely = to<br> do any harm.<br> <br> It has about $400 of outgoing capacity at the moment, and $2000 inbound. It= <br> gets hardly any donations at the moment, so if you manage to knock LND offl= ine<br> that's no big deal.<br> <br> That's not my money - it's donations to the OTS calendars that I ha= ve no right<br> to spend - so I'll ask you to pay for any expenses incurred by it durin= g<br> testing, and make a $100 net donation when you're done testing to make = it<br> worthwhile for the OTS community. If you manage to lose more than that on<b= r> justice transactions, I'll consider that a donation. :)<br> <br> -- <br> <a href=3D"https://petertodd.org" rel=3D"noreferrer nofollow" target=3D"_bl= ank" data-saferedirecturl=3D"https://www.google.com/url?hl=3Den&q=3Dhtt= ps://petertodd.org&source=3Dgmail&ust=3D1728744712253000&usg=3D= AOvVaw1TSX524BYOC-2Cgqq9abEf">https://petertodd.org</a> 'peter'[:-1= ]@<a href=3D"http://petertodd.org" rel=3D"noreferrer nofollow" target=3D"_b= lank" data-saferedirecturl=3D"https://www.google.com/url?hl=3Den&q=3Dht= tp://petertodd.org&source=3Dgmail&ust=3D1728744712253000&usg=3D= AOvVaw3VyZmFH2Wf-Xp6QH2J48pG">petertodd.org</a><br> </blockquote></div> </blockquote></div></blockquote></div> <p></p> -- <br /> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.<br /> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to <a href=3D"mailto:bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com">bitcoind= ev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br /> To view this discussion on the web visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.c= om/d/msgid/bitcoindev/9682d905-886c-4deb-924c-6461f4b67537n%40googlegroups.= com?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter">https://groups.google.com/d/msg= id/bitcoindev/9682d905-886c-4deb-924c-6461f4b67537n%40googlegroups.com</a>.= <br /> ------=_Part_3965_830052607.1728658912116-- ------=_Part_3964_1363283815.1728658912116--