Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2017 23:02:25 -0400
From: Peter Todd <pete@petertodd.org>
To: Mark Friedenbach <mark@friedenbach.org>
Message-ID: <20170929030225.GA12614@savin.petertodd.org>
References: <359FFE85-86AF-4FBD-9491-3528382E5002@friedenbach.org>
	<20170929020227.GA12192@savin.petertodd.org>
	<FAD5BE01-52B5-49C6-B018-47BF234A5EF2@friedenbach.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256;
	protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="HlL+5n6rz5pIUxbD"
Content-Disposition: inline
In-Reply-To: <FAD5BE01-52B5-49C6-B018-47BF234A5EF2@friedenbach.org>
User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12)
Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Rebatable fees & incentive-safe fee markets
Precedence: list


--HlL+5n6rz5pIUxbD
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 07:45:02PM -0700, Mark Friedenbach wrote:
>=20
>=20
> > On Sep 28, 2017, at 7:02 PM, Peter Todd <pete@petertodd.org> wrote:
> >=20
> >> On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 06:06:29PM -0700, Mark Friedenbach via bitcoin=
-dev wrote:
> >> Unlike other proposed fixes to the fee model, this is not trivially
> >> broken by paying the miner out of band.  If you pay out of band fee
> >> instead of regular fee, then your transaction cannot be included with
> >> other regular fee paying transactions without the miner giving up all
> >> regular fee income.  Any transaction paying less fee in-band than the
> >> otherwise minimum fee rate needs to also provide ~1Mvbyte * fee rate
> >> difference fee to make up for that lost income.  So out of band fee is
> >> only realistically considered when it pays on top of a regular feerate
> >> paying transaction that would have been included in the block anyway.
> >> And what would be the point of that?
> >=20
> > This proposed fix is itself broken, because the miner can easily includ=
e *only*
> > transactions paying out-of-band, at which point the fee can be anything.
>=20
> And in doing so either reduce the claimable income from other transaction=
s (miner won=E2=80=99t do that), or require paying more non-rebateable fee =
than is needed to get in the block (why would the user do that?)
>=20
> This is specifically addressed in the text you quoted.=20

I specifically outlined a scenario where that text isn't relevant: *all*
transaction in a block can be paying out of band.

> > Equally, miners can provide fee *rebates*, forcing up prices for everyo=
ne else
> > while still allowing them to make deals.
>=20
> Discounted by the fact rebates would not be honored by other miners. The =
rebate would have to be higher than what they could get from straight fee c=
ollection, making it less profitable than doing nothing.=20

You're making the incorrect assumption that all transactions have to be
broadcast publicly; they don't.

> > Also, remember that you can pay fees via anyone-can-spend outputs, as m=
iners
> > have full ability to control what transactions end up spending those ou=
tputs.
>=20
> You=E2=80=99d still have to pay the minimum fee rate of the other transac=
tions or you=E2=80=99d bring down the miners income. Otherwise this is near=
ly the same cost as the rebate fee, since they both involve explicit output=
s claimed by the miner, but the rebate goes back to you. So why would you n=
ot want to do that instead?
>=20
> A different way of looking at this proposal is that it creates a penalty =
for out of band payments.=20

It certainly does not. It simply adds another level of complexity and overh=
ead
to the out-of-band payment situation, which is not desirable. If we can't
eliminate out of band payments entirely, we do not want to make the playing
field of them even more unbalanced than it already is.

This is a typical academic proposal that only considers first order effects
while ignoring second order effects.

--=20
https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org

--HlL+5n6rz5pIUxbD
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc"
Content-Description: Digital signature

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJZzbe+AAoJECSBQD2l8JH7678H/Rpz4ND8MBsxF3j5BG4jr4zJ
HLxryWqkE1pgsNMEFOVbOYuElDKfiVw+J0YnctjLzs60pM8D7jA6C2RodajdFiEZ
aZME/0D385RoWAUq/yj7hkhdzldCOE7yVugKnOSGLntBTmy+guCOjkt4CPMBKsrD
mnWmqNP/eTGm0eniz7yXPC0ZYLnmgK154klgFNwGq6UuF1TUHWMXNdlhB97kfLfA
Xzf82Up12PO+AoyjkfXh2hXr4IdjYiscsKUGl5lZ6/EavSFaDKPGjMA0ZUeQ0wk6
dBd4/s7ucbGeJYYIlsTG8IDaCQ1ujrjy50DOdlmua9hV/H5/FxtFjNkPzR5O0Xc=
=EYsw
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--HlL+5n6rz5pIUxbD--