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In-Reply-To: <b292d887-cbd5-165c-de01-793df2b5e8f3@peersm.com>
From: Christopher Allen <ChristopherA@lifewithalacrity.com>
Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2023 14:18:06 -0800
Message-ID: <CACrqygAv842ucN7PLYMENXFiSwAZJy2Y+FziJXrWjyCcOXmL3g@mail.gmail.com>
To: Aymeric Vitte <aymeric@peersm.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004a8bcd05f3e72e64"
Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Debate: 64 bytes in OP_RETURN VS taproot OP_FALSE
 OP_IF OP_PUSH
Precedence: list

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On Sat, Feb 4, 2023 at 12:55 PM Aymeric Vitte <aymeric@peersm.com> wrote:

> Thanks Christopher, then I understand the process:
>
> - I must issue a PR where I switch 80 to another number, even if I am not
> a C/C++ expert it looks easy
>
Yes, this would be an easy PR, at least to start. I suspect that
longer-term, you'd need to draft some assistance to make it turn on/off
from when the bitcoin daemon is initialized. But that could wait until the
conversation has progressed some.

The harder part will be writing the initial comment, where you should
carefully explain the rationale, link to some existing conversations, try
to point out in advance the obvious objections and rationale despite them,
and explain your particular choice of number =E2=80=94 520 because that is =
a
similar limit in taproot? Some multiple of hash+signature+metadata to
satisfy others (that still might not be satisfied by any choice).

> - I  must stay calm and answer all outstanding concerns about this trivia=
l
> change
>
> - Since I am not as clever as the bitcoin devs I must be ready to revise
> my PR at any time
>
> - This could lead for the change to be from 80B to 82.xB where x comes
> from a non understandable crypto formula
>
> - I must evangelize the change worldwide
>
> - Once accepted, I must collude (pay) with the nodes/miners so they updat=
e
> at a subtile block height decided by the community
>
That is true for forks, but I don't think this is a fork. It might require
resolving some mempool issues (for instance for mining pools). But for it
to become non-optional, you'll need to demonstrate that miners and full
nodes have turned it on. Thus that is more a conversation than "collusion
(pay)".

> And then I must pray that the PR does not survive myself
>
> Looks like a pretty straight forward process.
>
I've seen worse. I co-authored TLS 1.0 (6 years) and DID 1.0 (5 years).

> I am on this list since quite some time, so, seriously, this change is
> needed, or, as I said before, deviant behaviours will happen, because the
> "witness trick" or others do not work at all, and are clearly similar to
> ethereum messy stuff
>
You have at least Concept ACK from me! ;-)

-- Christopher Allen

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, Feb 4, 2023 at 12:55 PM Aymer=
ic Vitte &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:aymeric@peersm.com">aymeric@peersm.com</a>&g=
t; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0p=
x 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color=
:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
 =20
   =20
 =20
  <div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">
    <p>Thanks Christopher, then I understand the process:</p>
    <p>- I must issue a PR where I switch 80 to another number, even if
      I am not a C/C++ expert it looks easy</p></div></blockquote><div>Yes,=
 this would be an easy PR,=C2=A0at least to start. I suspect that longer-te=
rm, you&#39;d need to draft some assistance to make it turn on/off from whe=
n the bitcoin daemon is initialized. But that could wait until the conversa=
tion has progressed some.<br></div><div><br></div><div>The harder part will=
 be writing the initial comment, where you should carefully explain the rat=
ionale, link to some existing conversations, try to point out in advance th=
e obvious objections and rationale despite them, and explain your particula=
r choice of number =E2=80=94 520 because that is a similar limit in taproot=
? Some multiple of hash+signature+metadata to satisfy others (that still mi=
ght not be satisfied by any choice).</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:=
solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor=3D"=
#FFFFFF">
    <p>- I=C2=A0 must stay calm and answer all outstanding concerns about
      this trivial change</p>
    <p>- Since I am not as clever as the bitcoin devs I must be ready to
      revise my PR at any time</p>
    <p>- This could lead for the change to be from 80B to 82.xB where x
      comes from a non understandable crypto formula<br>
    </p>
    <p>- I must evangelize the change worldwide</p>
    <p>- Once accepted, I must collude (pay) with the nodes/miners so
      they update at a subtile block height decided by the community<br></p=
></div></blockquote><div>That is true for forks, but I don&#39;t think this=
 is a fork. It might require resolving some mempool issues (for instance fo=
r mining pools). But for it to become non-optional, you&#39;ll need to demo=
nstrate that miners and full nodes have turned it on. Thus that is more a c=
onversation than &quot;collusion (pay)&quot;.</div><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-le=
ft-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div bg=
color=3D"#FFFFFF"><p>
    </p>
    <p>And then I must pray that the PR does not survive myself</p>
    <p>Looks like a pretty straight forward process.<br></p></div></blockqu=
ote><div>I&#39;ve seen worse. I co-authored TLS 1.0 (6 years) and DID 1.0 (=
5 years).<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0p=
x 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color=
:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><p>
    </p>
    <p>I am on this list since quite some time, so, seriously, this
      change is needed, or, as I said before, deviant behaviours will
      happen, because the &quot;witness trick&quot; or others do not work a=
t all,
      and are clearly similar to ethereum messy stuff</p></div></blockquote=
><div>You have at least Concept ACK from me! ;-)</div><div><br></div><div>-=
- Christopher Allen=C2=A0</div></div></div>

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