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boundary="000000000000fbb39105eb882576" X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 21 Oct 2022 09:39:45 +0000 Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>, Anthony Towns <aj@erisian.com.au> Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] [Opt-in full-RBF] Zero-conf apps in immediate danger X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev.lists.linuxfoundation.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/options/bitcoin-dev>, <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/> List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>, <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2022 09:34:34 -0000 --000000000000fbb39105eb882576 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" This is factually incorrect and not required for us to do what we do. On Fri, 21 Oct 2022 at 00:13, Peter Todd <pete@petertodd.org> wrote: > On Fri, Oct 21, 2022 at 05:58:41AM +1000, Anthony Towns via bitcoin-dev > wrote: > > On Thu, Oct 20, 2022 at 02:37:53PM +0200, Sergej Kotliar via bitcoin-dev > wrote: > > > > If someone's going to systematically exploit your store via this > > > > mechanism, it seems like they'd just find a single wallet with a good > > > > UX for opt-in RBF and lowballing fees, and go to town -- not > something > > > > where opt-in rbf vs fullrbf policies make any difference at all? > > > Sort of. But yes once this starts being abused systemically we will > have to > > > do something else w RBF payments, such as crediting the amount in BTC > to a > > > custodial account. But this option isn't available to your normal > payment > > > processor type business. > > > > So, what I'm hearing is: > > > > * lightning works great, but is still pretty small > > * zeroconf works great for txs that opt-out of RBF > > It's important to note that the businesses that say "zeroconf works great" > for > them, appear to be achieving that by sybil attacking the network to measure > propagation. That's not sustainable nor decentralized, as only a small > number > of companies can do that without causing a lot of harm to Bitcoin by using > up > inbound slots. We've gone through this before with "zeroconf guarantee" > services, and the end result is not good. > > It's in our interests to make sure those companies stop doing that, and no > new > companies start. > > -- > https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org > -- Sergej Kotliar CEO Twitter: @ziggamon <https://twitter.com/ziggamon> www.bitrefill.com Twitter <https://www.twitter.com/bitrefill> | Blog <https://www.bitrefill.com/blog/> | Angellist <https://angel.co/bitrefill> --000000000000fbb39105eb882576 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr">This is factually incorrect and not required for us to do = what we do.=C2=A0</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" clas= s=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, 21 Oct 2022 at 00:13, Peter Todd <<a href=3D"ma= ilto:pete@petertodd.org">pete@petertodd.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockq= uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1p= x solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">On Fri, Oct 21, 2022 at 05:58:41= AM +1000, Anthony Towns via bitcoin-dev wrote:<br> > On Thu, Oct 20, 2022 at 02:37:53PM +0200, Sergej Kotliar via bitcoin-d= ev wrote:<br> > > > If someone's going to systematically exploit your store = via this<br> > > > mechanism, it seems like they'd just find a single walle= t with a good<br> > > > UX for opt-in RBF and lowballing fees, and go to town -- not= something<br> > > > where opt-in rbf vs fullrbf policies make any difference at = all?<br> > > Sort of. But yes once this starts being abused systemically we wi= ll have to<br> > > do something else w RBF payments, such as crediting the amount in= BTC to a<br> > > custodial account. But this option isn't available to your no= rmal payment<br> > > processor type business.<br> > <br> > So, what I'm hearing is:<br> > <br> >=C2=A0 * lightning works great, but is still pretty small<br> >=C2=A0 * zeroconf works great for txs that opt-out of RBF<br> <br> It's important to note that the businesses that say "zeroconf work= s great" for<br> them, appear to be achieving that by sybil attacking the network to measure= <br> propagation. That's not sustainable nor decentralized, as only a small = number<br> of companies can do that without causing a lot of harm to Bitcoin by using = up<br> inbound slots. We've gone through this before with "zeroconf guara= ntee"<br> services, and the end result is not good.<br> <br> It's in our interests to make sure those companies stop doing that, and= no new<br> companies start.<br> <br> -- <br> <a href=3D"https://petertodd.org" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http= s://petertodd.org</a> 'peter'[:-1]@<a href=3D"http://petertodd.org"= rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">petertodd.org</a><br> </blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr"= class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"lt= r"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div= dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line= -height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5= pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-wei= ght:700;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical= -align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Sergej Kotliar</span></p><p dir=3D"lt= r" style=3D"line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style= =3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:tra= nsparent;font-weight:700;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decorat= ion:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">CEO</span></p><p dir= =3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><b sty= le=3D"font-weight:normal"><br></b></p><p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1= .38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fa= mily:Arial;color:rgb(102,102,102);background-color:transparent;font-weight:= 700;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-ali= gn:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"><span style=3D"border:none;display:inline= -block;overflow:hidden;width:220px;height:80px"><img src=3D"https://lh4.goo= gleusercontent.com/wU5i7e8boCd7o3P52cUTKrqeTa7jV2dPEXluijGtPBy0f1F0R2_zIg_z= OQ2kigkbVbSWqLlVdwuBYgo_txXMKkCWdMfBFRNhsDhFpNv1QrRZsD-gPxDui-4l0tZI1Qcjtef= CDkNG" width=3D"220" height=3D"80" style=3D"margin-left: 0px; margin-top: 0= px;"></span></span></p><p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1.38;margin-top:= 0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:Arial;col= or:rgb(102,102,102);background-color:transparent;font-weight:400;font-style= :normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;wh= ite-space:pre-wrap">Twitter: @</span><a href=3D"https://twitter.com/ziggamo= n" style=3D"text-decoration:none" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-siz= e:9.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(102,102,102);background-color:transpare= nt;font-weight:400;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text-decoration:un= derline;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">ziggamon</span></a><s= pan style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(102,102,102);backg= round-color:transparent;font-weight:400;font-style:normal;font-variant:norm= al;text-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">=C2= =A0</span></p><p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margi= n-bottom:0pt"><b style=3D"font-weight:normal"><br></b></p><p dir=3D"ltr" st= yle=3D"line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><a href=3D"http:/= /www.bitrefill.com/" style=3D"text-decoration:none" target=3D"_blank"><span= style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(102,102,102);backgrou= nd-color:transparent;font-weight:400;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;= text-decoration:underline;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">www= .bitrefill.com</span></a></p><p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1.38;margi= n-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><a href=3D"https://www.twitter.com/bitrefill" = target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:rg= b(102,102,102);background-color:transparent;vertical-align:baseline;white-s= pace:pre-wrap">Twitter</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family= :Arial;color:rgb(102,102,102);background-color:transparent;vertical-align:b= aseline;white-space:pre-wrap"> | </span><a href=3D"https://www.bitrefill.co= m/blog/" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:Arial= ;color:rgb(102,102,102);background-color:transparent;vertical-align:baselin= e;white-space:pre-wrap">Blog</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-= family:Arial;color:rgb(102,102,102);background-color:transparent;vertical-a= lign:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"> | </span><a href=3D"https://angel.co/b= itrefill" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:Aria= l;color:rgb(102,102,102);background-color:transparent;vertical-align:baseli= ne;white-space:pre-wrap">Angellist </span></a><br></p></div></div></div></d= iv></div></div></div></div></div></div></div> --000000000000fbb39105eb882576--