Return-Path: Received: from smtp3.osuosl.org (smtp3.osuosl.org [IPv6:2605:bc80:3010::136]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F078AC000A for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2021 01:20:44 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp3.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D76766067B for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2021 01:20:44 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.801 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.801 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from smtp3.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp3.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wg6opDf6q-ZJ for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2021 01:20:43 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.8.0 Received: from mail-wr1-f53.google.com (mail-wr1-f53.google.com [209.85.221.53]) by smtp3.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9799F6062F for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2021 01:20:43 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-wr1-f53.google.com with SMTP id j18so16075945wra.2 for ; Tue, 06 Apr 2021 18:20:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=JBKgmI25ytKClADh9H4QO1IQ/0Evk0lJ0klzx7cvXRo=; b=bavr2z4yu6FvI/hEpZ8l7x4CH/bWHwU9fPbPZRK2c0885wGKCM07c96JdsqhQiGqEd 5xax8V0UK+oevtSmkJEowXnAkuyiPZRSPrNArsASZvmlLt9e7NI4rN2f5+ggJQCrdBs/ DGWvV65TAWVeOy66Nxp9D+Fm6FjCPvrYqAJ/9yyWtRaoyflAm4A1RmEwiEPlqiQt1P2l ceH50u4rBd9sd2G+EigFAzvkirI1cIs1V4QG1eUnXEwIaGWUWl75QNHUPGC6F3cn+YJG feOZo8aOlIebeYsEbouMe2Ej8JvZLOkLqGXbhpvph88b4xPMAhadMZmyjkGOeTREHu0A 4ukA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5308UWzXLnAwcgl3vUE/57KCI2HPxZmFYjkWekMS2mmwrcd9xAIo nsYaw4KsmoSZxlU0U1FPt1OsdzqGQHCVNt7dZNyn+9kJe/9YYWwdfvs= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxO+WBz2YQGyp63zfezetU6cY2dVYy8pyecVoOQZXVYvK6srz2aZckiV8vlRCrNdAcVnxdiY2p8t/G2612kTWo= X-Received: by 2002:adf:f005:: with SMTP id j5mr1049929wro.423.1617758441739; Tue, 06 Apr 2021 18:20:41 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <874kgkkpji.fsf@rustcorp.com.au> In-Reply-To: <874kgkkpji.fsf@rustcorp.com.au> From: Ryan Grant Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 01:20:15 +0000 Message-ID: To: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion , Rusty Russell Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] March 23rd 2021 Taproot Activation Meeting Notes X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2021 01:20:45 -0000 On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 11:58 PM Rusty Russell via bitcoin-dev wrote: > The core question always was: what do we do if miners fail to activate? > > [...] Speedy Trial takes the approach that "let's pretend we didn't > *actually* ask [miners]". What ST is saying is that a strategy of avoiding unnecessary risk is stronger than a strategy of brinkmanship when brinkmanship wasn't our only option. Having deescalation in the strategy toolkit makes Bitcoin stronger. > It's totally a political approach, to avoid facing the awkward question. > Since I believe that such prevaricating makes a future crisis less > predictable, I am forced to conclude that it makes bitcoin less robust. LOT=true does face the awkward question, but there are downsides: - in the requirement to drop blocks from apathetic miners (although as Luke-Jr pointed out in a previous reply on this list they have no contract under which to raise a complaint); and - in the risk of a chain split, should gauging economic majority support - which there is zero intrinsic tooling for - go poorly. > Personally, I think the compromise position is using LOT=false and > having those such as Luke and myself continue working on a LOT=true > branch for future consideration. It's less than optimal, but I > appreciate that people want Taproot activated more than they want > the groundwork future upgrades. Another way of viewing the current situation is that should brinkmanship be necessary, then better tooling to resolve a situation that requires brinkmanship will be invaluable. But: - we do not need to normalize brinkmanship; - designing brinkmanship tooling well before the next crisis does not require selecting conveniently completed host features to strap the tooling onto for testing; and - it's already the case that a UASF branch can be prepared along with ST (ie. without requiring LOT=false), although the code is a bit more complex and the appropriate stopheight a few blocks later. Although your NACK is well explained, for the reasons above I am prepared to run code that overrides it.