To: Peter Todd <pete@petertodd.org>,
	Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>,
	Rhavar <rhavar@protonmail.com>
References: <CAAS2fgR-or=zksQ929Muvgr=sgzNSugGp669ZWYC6YkvEG=H5w@mail.gmail.com>
	<ae570ccf-3a2c-a11c-57fa-6dad78cfb1a5@satoshilabs.com>
	<CAAS2fgRQvpa8VXE8YAYSfugDvCu=1+5ANsGk1V_OXtHPGD=Ltw@mail.gmail.com>
	<vJsDz9YdeNQQ_PZRf5HP1W0FmcWyKHIuwN9QeNgN-WXCdQcRmXLtkQ3wfTO7YUCgG6AFgOkKeU6fdsGTKkGcnk-_OOY_jyNlfWkFQ31d2ZU=@protonmail.com>
	<20180109011335.GA22039@savin.petertodd.org>
From: jens <jenslewis0xfffaaa@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <29ef320d-e758-e00b-1be2-c1eae43de167@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2018 12:44:56 +0000
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Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Satoshilabs secret shared private key scheme
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> Trezor's "plausible deniability" scheme could very well result in you going to
> jail for lying to border security, because it's so easy for them to simply
> brute force alternate passwords based on your seeds. With that, they have proof
> that you lied to customs, a serious offense.
The passphrase scheme as I understand it allows a maximum of 50 
characters to be used.  Surely even with the HD seed, that search space 
is too large to brute force.  Or is there a weakness in the scheme I 
haven't clocked?

On 09/01/18 01:13, Peter Todd via bitcoin-dev wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 08, 2018 at 07:40:38PM -0500, Rhavar via bitcoin-dev wrote:
>> I think you're under-appreciating how useful the "plausible deniability". Someone I know was (solo) traveling to the United States when a border agent asked her to unlocked her phone; thumbed through her apps, ended up finding tinder and went through all her recent conversations to make sure she wasn't involved in any "pay for sex things".
>>
>> In the same light, I travel frequently and constantly have my trezor on me. If I am asked to unlock it, I will have no problems doing so (as refusal will no doubt lead to deportation) and showing my personal wallet (which sadly hasn't had much use since fees became ridiculous).
> Trezor's "plausible deniability" scheme could very well result in you going to
> jail for lying to border security, because it's so easy for them to simply
> brute force alternate passwords based on your seeds. With that, they have proof
> that you lied to customs, a serious offense.
>
> I would strongly advise you not to use it in that situation.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev


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    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:20180109011335.GA22039@savin.petertodd.org">
      <pre wrap="">Trezor's "plausible deniability" scheme could very well result in you going to
jail for lying to border security, because it's so easy for them to simply
brute force alternate passwords based on your seeds. With that, they have proof
that you lied to customs, a serious offense.
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    The passphrase scheme as I understand it allows a maximum of 50
    characters to be used.  Surely even with the HD seed, that search
    space is too large to brute force.  Or is there a weakness in the
    scheme I haven't clocked? <br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 09/01/18 01:13, Peter Todd via
      bitcoin-dev wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:20180109011335.GA22039@savin.petertodd.org">
      <pre wrap="">On Mon, Jan 08, 2018 at 07:40:38PM -0500, Rhavar via bitcoin-dev wrote:
</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">I think you're under-appreciating how useful the "plausible deniability". Someone I know was (solo) traveling to the United States when a border agent asked her to unlocked her phone; thumbed through her apps, ended up finding tinder and went through all her recent conversations to make sure she wasn't involved in any "pay for sex things".

In the same light, I travel frequently and constantly have my trezor on me. If I am asked to unlock it, I will have no problems doing so (as refusal will no doubt lead to deportation) and showing my personal wallet (which sadly hasn't had much use since fees became ridiculous).
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">
Trezor's "plausible deniability" scheme could very well result in you going to
jail for lying to border security, because it's so easy for them to simply
brute force alternate passwords based on your seeds. With that, they have proof
that you lied to customs, a serious offense.

I would strongly advise you not to use it in that situation.

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      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a>
</pre>
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