Return-Path: Received: from smtp2.osuosl.org (smtp2.osuosl.org [140.211.166.133]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE212C002D for ; Sat, 4 Jun 2022 13:48:55 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp2.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A273C403AC for ; Sat, 4 Jun 2022 13:48:55 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.087 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.087 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_MIME_MALF=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: smtp2.osuosl.org (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from smtp2.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp2.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dFVlOP5hkAFC for ; Sat, 4 Jun 2022 13:48:54 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.8.0 Received: from mail-wm1-x336.google.com (mail-wm1-x336.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::336]) by smtp2.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 300FA4002B for ; Sat, 4 Jun 2022 13:48:54 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-wm1-x336.google.com with SMTP id r129so5338499wmr.3 for ; Sat, 04 Jun 2022 06:48:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=sSFxdqnvTqzHh4xGPmUizQ7BRBWPtG+t2DFI/pZ4LU4=; b=fVrjMoWuQqILw4Kq9PhLJ5w2dtE+Hr+/5JPCjmTWINz8A5jEpBeFkyTTnFOugMTygP YTpsi+Lk91YykcD4k4tecoDsyFPswsS2M+dM+KE91LMBVpxRrt0lZt7WIqbs+Hi9ATdc TxJfLd7KhNuFUpx1RcCwbmJUzcQxajk494ISDuRztUKRh5V5GdKpn4LZSN+qFgD8wRmA QKoW8CPGcHmaoiQ7spARmti8QeY7J/2Ju++eL/srB1t2pHY8a2D/9H2xxm+E8RBPR0Lj 3PpoTuEo/lHyBzORjk1OuuL/olEZU/STZe5XeN39nok+nah73bIClAwDUn7+HQ5mPAMB hn7Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=sSFxdqnvTqzHh4xGPmUizQ7BRBWPtG+t2DFI/pZ4LU4=; b=mR//ePzFsgXRgTKvGbTjEaftCVYKG5+O5AS5WcoZ4qwmFdvUkhcSQIm9x0ZgCtn50m Jsxdh0cvHKi4PdgnbWfwszZZ0wj5wEyaMMqE4+pXvG9VjHwPUf28Ha8eg1b5GId0T1mx rsGoNH1BPuKXMZwJK7U6g1rWTERSRsGqS4OAVt3puY6auIOxG+xGTWmrT3z6IfFstXja GsW2TjL2Od1dFQct2aIEACq8EFOZRIYnyKwKbohMhF8sY6FDM7AeVNNVYozeVwzyMeos Iu66wuUDa87xFiua0veNyM3f7xPdEmx16tK3oz62U20X6EoCIz0EKCZOwQYsxQXOaeBF fMMQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533Xts7G9R6FqYZDSAhbC8i4yoRJoboNR8C+SU1mvkmAK9IdPmyk /Adaf93JGXU/sxiaRtusLPrLdLg6u5bNhlIr7PixSaif X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyKql3LGHt9LGMlp8gUSI0tgVsoLiYkmKRZ8KQ0AA427oYcQPoKd1LFLSZGxpf+ccRXqV0iZCBfs0lBrOdprVo= X-Received: by 2002:a05:600c:3041:b0:394:8835:2223 with SMTP id n1-20020a05600c304100b0039488352223mr14534731wmh.160.1654350531774; Sat, 04 Jun 2022 06:48:51 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Keagan McClelland Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2022 08:48:40 -0500 Message-ID: To: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion , John Carvalho Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c7cf1d05e09f7fd1" X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 04 Jun 2022 15:33:10 +0000 Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin covenants are inevitable X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2022 13:48:55 -0000 --000000000000c7cf1d05e09f7fd1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > will never be justifiable simply because you and some of your friends think it is totally cool and might make more people like you or give your friends funding. 100% But while the OP may have given less than ideal reasons for things like covenants, it does not broadly characterize the reasons for adding them to the Bitcoin protocol. The reasons to do so are: - better self custody solutions that don=E2=80=99t rely on the trust of nam= ed third parties - significantly more tractable solutions for things like coin pools - significantly more efficient DLCs These are not =E2=80=9Chackathon project=E2=80=9D reasons and are the main = reasons people advocate for covenants. > None of the quoted following items are features or responsibilities of the Bitcoin software, nor Core developers. Since you seem to have the stone tablets onto which our responsibilities are etched, would you care to enumerate them? > Whether you are a child or an attacker, none of us should care, Are you incapable of actually treating people with respect or do you think that bullying people on this mailing list is the most effective way to get what you want? If it=E2=80=99s the latter I may suggest you go back to Twit= ter where that works and maybe just leave those comments out of the mailing list if you actually want to convince people of your point of view. Keagan On Sat, Jun 4, 2022 at 7:37 AM John Carvalho via bitcoin-dev < bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > Core development is not a hackathon project. > > None of the quoted following items are features or responsibilities of th= e > Bitcoin software, nor Core developers. > > Quoted: > "- Developers can build interesting projects with real demand in market. > - Students learn Sapio and not just solidity. > - Better tooling could be available for application developers. > - Maybe we see bitcoin developer hackathons in different countries. > - Demand for block space might increase, it wont be just exchanges and > coinjoin. > - Funding of bitcoin developers and projects might improve. Wont need to > convince a few people for grants." > > Whether you are a child or an attacker, none of us should care, but CTV, > nor any change to Bitcoin software, will never be justifiable simply > because you and some of your friends think it is totally cool and might > make more people like you or give your friends funding. > > Please stop making noise about CTV, this is not a place for spamming. > > -- > John Carvalho > > > > On Sat, Jun 4, 2022 at 1:00 PM < > bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > >> >> Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2022 18:39:34 +0000 >> From: alicexbt >> To: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion >> >> Subject: [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin covenants are inevitable >> Message-ID: >> >> > protonmail.com> >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dutf-8 >> >> Note: This email is an opinion and not an attack on bitcoin >> >> Covenants on bitcoin will eventually be implemented with a soft fork. CT= V >> is the easiest and best possible way OP_TX looks good as well. Apart fro= m >> the technical merits, covenants will improve a few other things: >> >> - Developers can build interesting projects with real demand in market. >> - Students learn Sapio and not just solidity. >> - Better tooling could be available for application developers. >> - Maybe we see bitcoin developer hackathons in different countries. >> - Demand for block space might increase, it wont be just exchanges and >> coinjoin. >> - Funding of bitcoin developers and projects might improve. Wont need to >> convince a few people for grants. >> >> **Why covenants are not contentious?** >> >> Some people may write paragraphs about CTV being contentious, spread >> misinformation and do all types of drama, politics etc. on social media = but >> there are zero technical NACKs for CTV. We have discussed other covenant >> proposals in detail on mailing list and IRC meetings with an open minded >> approach. >> >> All the developers that participated in the discussion are either okay >> with CTV or OP_TX or covenants in general. >> >> **How and when should covenants be implemented in Bitcoin?** >> >> I don't think we should wait for years anticipating a proposal that >> everyone will agree on or argue for years to pretend changes are hard in >> Bitcoin. We should improve the review process for soft fork BIPs and sha= re >> honest opinions with agreement, disagreement on technical merits. >> >> I prefer BIP 8 or improved BIP 8 for soft fork but I won't mind anything >> else being used if that improves Bitcoin. Covenants implemented in Bitco= in >> before the next cycle would provide opportunity for developers to build >> interesting things during the bear market. Ossification supporters also >> believe there is some window that will close soon, maybe doing changes >> considering each case individually will be a better approach. CTV is not= a >> rushed soft fork, less people followed the research and it was not >> mentioned on social media repeatedly by the respected developers like ot= her >> soft forks. >> >> /dev/fd0 >> >> >> Sent with Proton Mail secure email. >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > --000000000000c7cf1d05e09f7fd1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>=C2=A0will never be justifiable=C2=A0simply because you and some of your fr= iends think it is totally cool and might make more people like you or give = your friends funding.

100%

But wh= ile the OP may have given less than ideal reasons for things like covenants= , it does not broadly characterize the reasons for adding them to the Bitco= in protocol. The reasons to do so are:

- better self c= ustody solutions that don=E2=80=99t rely on the trust of named third partie= s
- significantly more tractable solutions for things like coin poo= ls
- significantly more efficient DLCs

These are not =E2=80=9Chackathon project=E2=80=9D = reasons and are the main reasons people advocate for covenants.

>=C2=A0None of the quoted following items are featur= es=C2=A0or responsibilities=C2=A0of the Bitcoin software, nor Core develope= rs.

<= /div>
Since you seem to have = the stone tablets onto which our responsibilities are etched, would you car= e to enumerate them?

>= =C2=A0Whether you are a child or an= attacker, none of us should care,

Are you incapable of actually treating people with respect or do yo= u think that bullying people on this mailing list is the most effective way= to get what you want? If it=E2=80=99s the latter I may suggest you go back= to Twitter where that works and maybe just leave those comments out of the= mailing list if you actually want to convince people of your point of view= .

Keagan
<= br>
On Sat,= Jun 4, 2022 at 7:37 AM John Carvalho via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.o= rg> wrote:
Core development is not a hackathon project.

None of the quoted following items are features=C2=A0or responsibilities= =C2=A0of the Bitcoin software, nor Core developers.=C2=A0

Quoted:
"- Developers can build interesting projects= with real demand in market.
- Students learn Sapio and not just solidit= y.
- Better tooling could be available for application developers.
- = Maybe we see bitcoin developer hackathons in different countries.
- Dema= nd for block space might increase, it wont be just exchanges and coinjoin.<= br>- Funding of bitcoin developers and projects might improve. Wont need to= convince a few people for grants."

Whether you are a child or an attacker, none of us should care, but = CTV, nor any change to Bitcoin software, will never be justifiable=C2=A0sim= ply because you and some of your friends think it is totally cool and might= make more people like you or give your friends funding.

Please stop making noise about CTV, this is not a place for spamming= .

--
John Carvalho

<= /div>


On Sat, Jun 4, 2022 at 1:00 PM <bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2022 18:39:34 +0000
From: alicexbt <alicexbt@protonmail.com>
To: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org&g= t;
Subject: [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin covenants are inevitable
Message-ID:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <QOWIpROGDv5HHP2GsDiSOsTJ9TVZhFeSP3C03_e2Z3X= tOKC_4N5GJtxbdlxuhErvhLZXo1Rn_7SWAQ9XRPwHFuYyArZryTVENefDZuGTAYA=3D@protonmail.= com>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dutf-8

Note: This email is an opinion and not an attack on bitcoin

Covenants on bitcoin will eventually be implemented with a soft fork. CTV i= s the easiest and best possible way OP_TX looks good as well. Apart from th= e technical merits, covenants will improve a few other things:

- Developers can build interesting projects with real demand in market.
- Students learn Sapio and not just solidity.
- Better tooling could be available for application developers.
- Maybe we see bitcoin developer hackathons in different countries.
- Demand for block space might increase, it wont be just exchanges and coin= join.
- Funding of bitcoin developers and projects might improve. Wont need to co= nvince a few people for grants.

**Why covenants are not contentious?**

Some people may write paragraphs about CTV being contentious, spread misinf= ormation and do all types of drama, politics etc. on social media but there= are zero technical NACKs for CTV. We have discussed other covenant proposa= ls in detail on mailing list and IRC meetings with an open minded approach.=

All the developers that participated in the discussion are either okay with= CTV or OP_TX or covenants in general.

**How and when should covenants be implemented in Bitcoin?**

I don't think we should wait for years anticipating a proposal that eve= ryone will agree on or argue for years to pretend changes are hard in Bitco= in. We should improve the review process for soft fork BIPs and share hones= t opinions with agreement, disagreement on technical merits.

I prefer BIP 8 or improved BIP 8 for soft fork but I won't mind anythin= g else being used if that improves Bitcoin. Covenants implemented in Bitcoi= n before the next cycle would provide opportunity for developers to build i= nteresting things during the bear market. Ossification supporters also beli= eve there is some window that will close soon, maybe doing changes consider= ing each case individually will be a better approach. CTV is not a rushed s= oft fork, less people followed the research and it was not mentioned on soc= ial media repeatedly by the respected developers like other soft forks.

/dev/fd0


Sent with Proton Mail secure email.


------------------------------
_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
= bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mail= man/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
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