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From: Pavol Rusnak <stick@satoshilabs.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 23:45:20 +0100
Message-ID: <CAF90AvnLqyC=yDcT8yWORfQPKHPn06_YFffj9WGbP9+v5RZ1Fw@mail.gmail.com>
To: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
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Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] bip39
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--000000000000ef572205d5cee89b
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Trezor recovery cards look like this what addresses the issue:

https://wiki.trezor.io/images/Seed_card_example.jpg

1. Each word has a box around it.
2. You write the words one under the other, not next to each other.


On Mon, 17 Jan 2022 at 23:38, Jeremy via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

> This is a good point, but can be addressed by having a non-void whitespace
> character (e.g., win x estate).
>
> changing BIP39 would be hard since software expects a standard list; it
> would also be possible to rejection sample for seeds that do not contain
> these pairs, unclear how much entropy would be lost from that.
> --
> @JeremyRubin <https://twitter.com/JeremyRubin>
> <https://twitter.com/JeremyRubin>
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 17, 2022 at 2:26 PM Erik Aronesty via bitcoin-dev <
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
>> really don't like that art, work, and artwork are 3 different words
>>
>> would be nice to clean up adjacent ambiguity
>>
>> it's not a big deal, but it can lead to confusion when writing things down
>>
>>
>> dup: ('canal', 'arm') ('can', 'alarm')
>> dup: ('canal', 'one') ('can', 'alone')
>> dup: ('canal', 'ready') ('can', 'already')
>> dup: ('card', 'anger') ('car', 'danger')
>> dup: ('card', 'ice') ('car', 'dice')
>> dup: ('card', 'inner') ('car', 'dinner')
>> dup: ('card', 'raw') ('car', 'draw')
>> dup: ('cart', 'able') ('car', 'table')
>> dup: ('cart', 'ask') ('car', 'task')
>> dup: ('cart', 'hat') ('car', 'that')
>> dup: ('cart', 'hen') ('car', 'then')
>> dup: ('cart', 'issue') ('car', 'tissue')
>> dup: ('cart', 'one') ('car', 'tone')
>> dup: ('cart', 'own') ('car', 'town')
>> dup: ('cart', 'rack') ('car', 'track')
>> dup: ('cart', 'rain') ('car', 'train')
>> dup: ('cart', 'win') ('car', 'twin')
>> dup: ('catch', 'air') ('cat', 'chair')
>> dup: ('erase', 'arch') ('era', 'search')
>> dup: ('fatal', 'arm') ('fat', 'alarm')
>> dup: ('fatal', 'one') ('fat', 'alone')
>> dup: ('fatal', 'ready') ('fat', 'already')
>> dup: ('feed', 'anger') ('fee', 'danger')
>> dup: ('feed', 'ice') ('fee', 'dice')
>> dup: ('feed', 'inner') ('fee', 'dinner')
>> dup: ('feed', 'raw') ('fee', 'draw')
>> dup: ('feel', 'earn') ('fee', 'learn')
>> dup: ('feel', 'end') ('fee', 'lend')
>> dup: ('gasp', 'act') ('gas', 'pact')
>> dup: ('gasp', 'age') ('gas', 'page')
>> dup: ('gasp', 'air') ('gas', 'pair')
>> dup: ('gasp', 'ill') ('gas', 'pill')
>> dup: ('gasp', 'raise') ('gas', 'praise')
>> dup: ('gasp', 'rice') ('gas', 'price')
>> dup: ('gasp', 'ride') ('gas', 'pride')
>> dup: ('gasp', 'roof') ('gas', 'proof')
>> dup: ('kite', 'merge') ('kit', 'emerge')
>> dup: ('kite', 'motion') ('kit', 'emotion')
>> dup: ('kite', 'state') ('kit', 'estate')
>> dup: ('lawn', 'arrow') ('law', 'narrow')
>> dup: ('lawn', 'either') ('law', 'neither')
>> dup: ('lawn', 'ice') ('law', 'nice')
>> dup: ('legal', 'arm') ('leg', 'alarm')
>> dup: ('legal', 'one') ('leg', 'alone')
>> dup: ('legal', 'ready') ('leg', 'already')
>> dup: ('seat', 'able') ('sea', 'table')
>> dup: ('seat', 'ask') ('sea', 'task')
>> dup: ('seat', 'hat') ('sea', 'that')
>> dup: ('seat', 'hen') ('sea', 'then')
>> dup: ('seat', 'issue') ('sea', 'tissue')
>> dup: ('seat', 'one') ('sea', 'tone')
>> dup: ('seat', 'own') ('sea', 'town')
>> dup: ('seat', 'rack') ('sea', 'track')
>> dup: ('seat', 'rain') ('sea', 'train')
>> dup: ('seat', 'win') ('sea', 'twin')
>> dup: ('skin', 'arrow') ('ski', 'narrow')
>> dup: ('skin', 'either') ('ski', 'neither')
>> dup: ('skin', 'ice') ('ski', 'nice')
>> dup: ('tent', 'able') ('ten', 'table')
>> dup: ('tent', 'ask') ('ten', 'task')
>> dup: ('tent', 'hat') ('ten', 'that')
>> dup: ('tent', 'hen') ('ten', 'then')
>> dup: ('tent', 'issue') ('ten', 'tissue')
>> dup: ('tent', 'one') ('ten', 'tone')
>> dup: ('tent', 'own') ('ten', 'town')
>> dup: ('tent', 'rack') ('ten', 'track')
>> dup: ('tent', 'rain') ('ten', 'train')
>> dup: ('tent', 'win') ('ten', 'twin')
>> dup: ('used', 'anger') ('use', 'danger')
>> dup: ('used', 'ice') ('use', 'dice')
>> dup: ('used', 'inner') ('use', 'dinner')
>> dup: ('used', 'raw') ('use', 'draw')
>> dup: ('wine', 'merge') ('win', 'emerge')
>> dup: ('wine', 'motion') ('win', 'emotion')
>> dup: ('wine', 'state') ('win', 'estate')
>> dup: ('wing', 'host') ('win', 'ghost')
>> dup: ('wing', 'love') ('win', 'glove')
>> dup: ('wing', 'old') ('win', 'gold')
>> dup: ('wing', 'own') ('win', 'gown')
>> dup: ('wing', 'race') ('win', 'grace')
>> dup: ('wing', 'rain') ('win', 'grain')
>> dup: ('wink', 'now') ('win', 'know')
>> dup: ('youth', 'under') ('you', 'thunder')
>> _______________________________________________
>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>


-- 
Best Regards / S pozdravom,

Pavol "stick" Rusnak
Co-Founder, SatoshiLabs

--000000000000ef572205d5cee89b
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Trezor recovery cards look like this what addresses the is=
sue:<div><br></div><div><a href=3D"https://wiki.trezor.io/images/Seed_card_=
example.jpg">https://wiki.trezor.io/images/Seed_card_example.jpg</a><br></d=
iv><div><br></div><div>1. Each word has a box around it.</div><div>2. You w=
rite the words one under the other, not next to each other.</div><div><br><=
/div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_a=
ttr">On Mon, 17 Jan 2022 at 23:38, Jeremy via bitcoin-dev &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundati=
on.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left=
:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:ar=
ial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">This is a good p=
oint, but can be addressed=C2=A0by having a non-void whitespace character (=
e.g., win x estate).</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family=
:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></div><di=
v class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;f=
ont-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">changing BIP39 would be hard since softwar=
e expects a standard list; it would also be possible to rejection sample fo=
r seeds that do not contain these pairs, unclear how much entropy would be =
lost from that.</div><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">--<br><a href=
=3D"https://twitter.com/JeremyRubin" target=3D"_blank">@JeremyRubin</a><a h=
ref=3D"https://twitter.com/JeremyRubin" target=3D"_blank"></a></div></div><=
/div><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gma=
il_attr">On Mon, Jan 17, 2022 at 2:26 PM Erik Aronesty via bitcoin-dev &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">=
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px soli=
d rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">really don&#39;t like that art, work, =
and artwork are 3 different words<br>
<br>
would be nice to clean up adjacent ambiguity<br>
<br>
it&#39;s not a big deal, but it can lead to confusion when writing things d=
own<br>
<br>
<br>
dup: (&#39;canal&#39;, &#39;arm&#39;) (&#39;can&#39;, &#39;alarm&#39;)<br>
dup: (&#39;canal&#39;, &#39;one&#39;) (&#39;can&#39;, &#39;alone&#39;)<br>
dup: (&#39;canal&#39;, &#39;ready&#39;) (&#39;can&#39;, &#39;already&#39;)<=
br>
dup: (&#39;card&#39;, &#39;anger&#39;) (&#39;car&#39;, &#39;danger&#39;)<br=
>
dup: (&#39;card&#39;, &#39;ice&#39;) (&#39;car&#39;, &#39;dice&#39;)<br>
dup: (&#39;card&#39;, &#39;inner&#39;) (&#39;car&#39;, &#39;dinner&#39;)<br=
>
dup: (&#39;card&#39;, &#39;raw&#39;) (&#39;car&#39;, &#39;draw&#39;)<br>
dup: (&#39;cart&#39;, &#39;able&#39;) (&#39;car&#39;, &#39;table&#39;)<br>
dup: (&#39;cart&#39;, &#39;ask&#39;) (&#39;car&#39;, &#39;task&#39;)<br>
dup: (&#39;cart&#39;, &#39;hat&#39;) (&#39;car&#39;, &#39;that&#39;)<br>
dup: (&#39;cart&#39;, &#39;hen&#39;) (&#39;car&#39;, &#39;then&#39;)<br>
dup: (&#39;cart&#39;, &#39;issue&#39;) (&#39;car&#39;, &#39;tissue&#39;)<br=
>
dup: (&#39;cart&#39;, &#39;one&#39;) (&#39;car&#39;, &#39;tone&#39;)<br>
dup: (&#39;cart&#39;, &#39;own&#39;) (&#39;car&#39;, &#39;town&#39;)<br>
dup: (&#39;cart&#39;, &#39;rack&#39;) (&#39;car&#39;, &#39;track&#39;)<br>
dup: (&#39;cart&#39;, &#39;rain&#39;) (&#39;car&#39;, &#39;train&#39;)<br>
dup: (&#39;cart&#39;, &#39;win&#39;) (&#39;car&#39;, &#39;twin&#39;)<br>
dup: (&#39;catch&#39;, &#39;air&#39;) (&#39;cat&#39;, &#39;chair&#39;)<br>
dup: (&#39;erase&#39;, &#39;arch&#39;) (&#39;era&#39;, &#39;search&#39;)<br=
>
dup: (&#39;fatal&#39;, &#39;arm&#39;) (&#39;fat&#39;, &#39;alarm&#39;)<br>
dup: (&#39;fatal&#39;, &#39;one&#39;) (&#39;fat&#39;, &#39;alone&#39;)<br>
dup: (&#39;fatal&#39;, &#39;ready&#39;) (&#39;fat&#39;, &#39;already&#39;)<=
br>
dup: (&#39;feed&#39;, &#39;anger&#39;) (&#39;fee&#39;, &#39;danger&#39;)<br=
>
dup: (&#39;feed&#39;, &#39;ice&#39;) (&#39;fee&#39;, &#39;dice&#39;)<br>
dup: (&#39;feed&#39;, &#39;inner&#39;) (&#39;fee&#39;, &#39;dinner&#39;)<br=
>
dup: (&#39;feed&#39;, &#39;raw&#39;) (&#39;fee&#39;, &#39;draw&#39;)<br>
dup: (&#39;feel&#39;, &#39;earn&#39;) (&#39;fee&#39;, &#39;learn&#39;)<br>
dup: (&#39;feel&#39;, &#39;end&#39;) (&#39;fee&#39;, &#39;lend&#39;)<br>
dup: (&#39;gasp&#39;, &#39;act&#39;) (&#39;gas&#39;, &#39;pact&#39;)<br>
dup: (&#39;gasp&#39;, &#39;age&#39;) (&#39;gas&#39;, &#39;page&#39;)<br>
dup: (&#39;gasp&#39;, &#39;air&#39;) (&#39;gas&#39;, &#39;pair&#39;)<br>
dup: (&#39;gasp&#39;, &#39;ill&#39;) (&#39;gas&#39;, &#39;pill&#39;)<br>
dup: (&#39;gasp&#39;, &#39;raise&#39;) (&#39;gas&#39;, &#39;praise&#39;)<br=
>
dup: (&#39;gasp&#39;, &#39;rice&#39;) (&#39;gas&#39;, &#39;price&#39;)<br>
dup: (&#39;gasp&#39;, &#39;ride&#39;) (&#39;gas&#39;, &#39;pride&#39;)<br>
dup: (&#39;gasp&#39;, &#39;roof&#39;) (&#39;gas&#39;, &#39;proof&#39;)<br>
dup: (&#39;kite&#39;, &#39;merge&#39;) (&#39;kit&#39;, &#39;emerge&#39;)<br=
>
dup: (&#39;kite&#39;, &#39;motion&#39;) (&#39;kit&#39;, &#39;emotion&#39;)<=
br>
dup: (&#39;kite&#39;, &#39;state&#39;) (&#39;kit&#39;, &#39;estate&#39;)<br=
>
dup: (&#39;lawn&#39;, &#39;arrow&#39;) (&#39;law&#39;, &#39;narrow&#39;)<br=
>
dup: (&#39;lawn&#39;, &#39;either&#39;) (&#39;law&#39;, &#39;neither&#39;)<=
br>
dup: (&#39;lawn&#39;, &#39;ice&#39;) (&#39;law&#39;, &#39;nice&#39;)<br>
dup: (&#39;legal&#39;, &#39;arm&#39;) (&#39;leg&#39;, &#39;alarm&#39;)<br>
dup: (&#39;legal&#39;, &#39;one&#39;) (&#39;leg&#39;, &#39;alone&#39;)<br>
dup: (&#39;legal&#39;, &#39;ready&#39;) (&#39;leg&#39;, &#39;already&#39;)<=
br>
dup: (&#39;seat&#39;, &#39;able&#39;) (&#39;sea&#39;, &#39;table&#39;)<br>
dup: (&#39;seat&#39;, &#39;ask&#39;) (&#39;sea&#39;, &#39;task&#39;)<br>
dup: (&#39;seat&#39;, &#39;hat&#39;) (&#39;sea&#39;, &#39;that&#39;)<br>
dup: (&#39;seat&#39;, &#39;hen&#39;) (&#39;sea&#39;, &#39;then&#39;)<br>
dup: (&#39;seat&#39;, &#39;issue&#39;) (&#39;sea&#39;, &#39;tissue&#39;)<br=
>
dup: (&#39;seat&#39;, &#39;one&#39;) (&#39;sea&#39;, &#39;tone&#39;)<br>
dup: (&#39;seat&#39;, &#39;own&#39;) (&#39;sea&#39;, &#39;town&#39;)<br>
dup: (&#39;seat&#39;, &#39;rack&#39;) (&#39;sea&#39;, &#39;track&#39;)<br>
dup: (&#39;seat&#39;, &#39;rain&#39;) (&#39;sea&#39;, &#39;train&#39;)<br>
dup: (&#39;seat&#39;, &#39;win&#39;) (&#39;sea&#39;, &#39;twin&#39;)<br>
dup: (&#39;skin&#39;, &#39;arrow&#39;) (&#39;ski&#39;, &#39;narrow&#39;)<br=
>
dup: (&#39;skin&#39;, &#39;either&#39;) (&#39;ski&#39;, &#39;neither&#39;)<=
br>
dup: (&#39;skin&#39;, &#39;ice&#39;) (&#39;ski&#39;, &#39;nice&#39;)<br>
dup: (&#39;tent&#39;, &#39;able&#39;) (&#39;ten&#39;, &#39;table&#39;)<br>
dup: (&#39;tent&#39;, &#39;ask&#39;) (&#39;ten&#39;, &#39;task&#39;)<br>
dup: (&#39;tent&#39;, &#39;hat&#39;) (&#39;ten&#39;, &#39;that&#39;)<br>
dup: (&#39;tent&#39;, &#39;hen&#39;) (&#39;ten&#39;, &#39;then&#39;)<br>
dup: (&#39;tent&#39;, &#39;issue&#39;) (&#39;ten&#39;, &#39;tissue&#39;)<br=
>
dup: (&#39;tent&#39;, &#39;one&#39;) (&#39;ten&#39;, &#39;tone&#39;)<br>
dup: (&#39;tent&#39;, &#39;own&#39;) (&#39;ten&#39;, &#39;town&#39;)<br>
dup: (&#39;tent&#39;, &#39;rack&#39;) (&#39;ten&#39;, &#39;track&#39;)<br>
dup: (&#39;tent&#39;, &#39;rain&#39;) (&#39;ten&#39;, &#39;train&#39;)<br>
dup: (&#39;tent&#39;, &#39;win&#39;) (&#39;ten&#39;, &#39;twin&#39;)<br>
dup: (&#39;used&#39;, &#39;anger&#39;) (&#39;use&#39;, &#39;danger&#39;)<br=
>
dup: (&#39;used&#39;, &#39;ice&#39;) (&#39;use&#39;, &#39;dice&#39;)<br>
dup: (&#39;used&#39;, &#39;inner&#39;) (&#39;use&#39;, &#39;dinner&#39;)<br=
>
dup: (&#39;used&#39;, &#39;raw&#39;) (&#39;use&#39;, &#39;draw&#39;)<br>
dup: (&#39;wine&#39;, &#39;merge&#39;) (&#39;win&#39;, &#39;emerge&#39;)<br=
>
dup: (&#39;wine&#39;, &#39;motion&#39;) (&#39;win&#39;, &#39;emotion&#39;)<=
br>
dup: (&#39;wine&#39;, &#39;state&#39;) (&#39;win&#39;, &#39;estate&#39;)<br=
>
dup: (&#39;wing&#39;, &#39;host&#39;) (&#39;win&#39;, &#39;ghost&#39;)<br>
dup: (&#39;wing&#39;, &#39;love&#39;) (&#39;win&#39;, &#39;glove&#39;)<br>
dup: (&#39;wing&#39;, &#39;old&#39;) (&#39;win&#39;, &#39;gold&#39;)<br>
dup: (&#39;wing&#39;, &#39;own&#39;) (&#39;win&#39;, &#39;gown&#39;)<br>
dup: (&#39;wing&#39;, &#39;race&#39;) (&#39;win&#39;, &#39;grace&#39;)<br>
dup: (&#39;wing&#39;, &#39;rain&#39;) (&#39;win&#39;, &#39;grain&#39;)<br>
dup: (&#39;wink&#39;, &#39;now&#39;) (&#39;win&#39;, &#39;know&#39;)<br>
dup: (&#39;youth&#39;, &#39;under&#39;) (&#39;you&#39;, &#39;thunder&#39;)<=
br>
_______________________________________________<br>
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<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">=
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
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rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mail=
man/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br>
</blockquote></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">=
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mail=
man/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr"=
 class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div></di=
v><div>Best Regards / S pozdravom,</div><div><br></div><div>Pavol &quot;sti=
ck&quot; Rusnak</div><div>Co-Founder, SatoshiLabs</div></div></div></div></=
div>

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