Received: from sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.191] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-4.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from <tier.nolan@gmail.com>) id 1Wd25D-00006y-HP for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Wed, 23 Apr 2014 18:39:47 +0000 Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.216.42 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.216.42; envelope-from=tier.nolan@gmail.com; helo=mail-qa0-f42.google.com; Received: from mail-qa0-f42.google.com ([209.85.216.42]) by sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) id 1Wd25C-0007sD-BB for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Wed, 23 Apr 2014 18:39:47 +0000 Received: by mail-qa0-f42.google.com with SMTP id k15so1254643qaq.15 for <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>; Wed, 23 Apr 2014 11:39:40 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.224.163.73 with SMTP id z9mr23730174qax.90.1398278380857; Wed, 23 Apr 2014 11:39:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.140.25.86 with HTTP; Wed, 23 Apr 2014 11:39:40 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <CAJna-Hh2t-E=fm9V0EH+qOQTx+qsmcBemEJmML0G9PgsrJr5eg@mail.gmail.com> References: <CANEZrP2hbBVGqytmXR1rAcVama4ONnR586Se-Ch=dsxOzy2O4w@mail.gmail.com> <F2C8C044-EF92-4CCE-9235-28CA7FCE3526@bitsofproof.com> <CAJHLa0PPAsBLgsy0vgPpUp=UzeR_fWUEzFb5+xtmODEk4MGPVQ@mail.gmail.com> <CAJfRnm7V6fgcj=TMfa2ZTYWOKtE5aoUT1xnVtKUSyriB=6cagQ@mail.gmail.com> <CAPg+sBjwf1TcK1CGKVKFzYbV-78j8t-pav7=PEgG7Yqi6-yE7A@mail.gmail.com> <53344FF8.7030204@gk2.sk> <CAPg+sBhbx5vy_hewAkFPaiXHzSMNH0qLhEYGjPmQMjR5StP-tw@mail.gmail.com> <CAJna-Hi0JnrF2_rUx0rGkdnsuCoaD01e3Gobpn+QqbL=D1Uivg@mail.gmail.com> <CAJna-HirtsGLfAhfUf9dAYEGWo6g=o=eAU187c2pdW8vDFGkPw@mail.gmail.com> <CAPg+sBg8wDH9yTUoyhRbuzVtbD8hGxya8tOnV4pMToHy3gLrzw@mail.gmail.com> <CAJna-HiN_1KQmpDJFFX6mGvM63RC0xwXxvfuorpihnzYf4=fsQ@mail.gmail.com> <CAJna-HgfpyHX_0AHwt1Hkj0qhD_-xOcpxsZ9KXq=7CPgwse1hA@mail.gmail.com> <CAPg+sBguSQ8dk1xXKinX+ez4BmdM3sz-huruuhD6NCTsp0kRBQ@mail.gmail.com> <CAJna-Hib6umrkG0pAQzQvsyBMxOU6P675TURsVuWSU_ci9+X_A@mail.gmail.com> <CAPg+sBiwzfXDAM0FKsBPi8d6E5y_nK5FDyfPvPhOTAA+f8654Q@mail.gmail.com> <CAJna-HhPm0U2odPgRji7zJqCZCWuXKT_=ayC2tsajjRX5TiCXg@mail.gmail.com> <CAJna-Hh2t-E=fm9V0EH+qOQTx+qsmcBemEJmML0G9PgsrJr5eg@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2014 19:39:40 +0100 Message-ID: <CAE-z3OVCL34FMECHDC3d8OiRKYhVSkzZFU0cGHV0ifu09bCbJA@mail.gmail.com> From: Tier Nolan <tier.nolan@gmail.com> To: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0158b030302fa904f7ba0e7b X-Spam-Score: -0.6 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. -1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for sender-domain 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (tier.nolan[at]gmail.com) -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 1.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message -0.1 DKIM_VALID_AU Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature X-Headers-End: 1Wd25C-0007sD-BB Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] New BIP32 structure X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: <bitcoin-development.lists.sourceforge.net> List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development>, <mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_name=bitcoin-development> List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net> List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development>, <mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2014 18:39:47 -0000 --089e0158b030302fa904f7ba0e7b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Different users could have different gap limit requirements. 20 seems very low as the default. A merchant could easily send 20 addresses in a row to customers and none of them bother to actually buy anything. Setting the gap limit to high is just a small extra cost in that case. Bip-32 serialization doesn't have a way of adding meta data though. On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 7:18 PM, slush <slush@centrum.cz> wrote: > For those who don't follow github pull requests regularly; there's pull > request for BIP64 defining HD wallet structure as discussed in this thread: > > https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/52 > > > > On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 8:01 PM, slush <slush@centrum.cz> wrote: > >> >> >> >> On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 7:42 PM, Pieter Wuille <pieter.wuille@gmail.com>wrote: >>> >>> Storing the seed is superior to storing the master node already >>> (whether coin specific or not), as it is smaller. >>> >>> >> ...Except that you're loosing flexibility (serialization, >> deserialization) which gives you BIP32 node. >> >> I see "bip32 seed" as some transitional, internal state from raw entropy >> to bip32 master node and this seed should not be handled by the end user in >> any form. In the oposite, well-serialized bip32 node (in xpriv, or even in >> mnemonic format) can be used very widely and have no downsides against >> using raw "bip32 seed". >> >> >>> >>> Fair enough, it would break strictly BIP32. Then again, BIP32 is a >>> *Bitcoin* improvement proposal, and not something that necessarily >>> applies to other coins (they can adopt it of course, I don't care). >>> >>> >> I also don't care too much about altcoins, but people want them so me, as >> infrastructure developer, need to think about it. And I don't see any >> reason for breaking compatibility between Bitcoin and other altcoins. I >> would be happier if there will be another sentence than "Bitcoin seed", but >> honestly, who cares. It is just some magic string for hashing the raw >> seed... >> >> >>> What I dislike is that this removes the ability of using the magic in >>> the serialization to prevent importing a chain from the wrong coin. >>> >> >> The truth is that even existing software which handle bip32 don't care >> about 'version' at all. I think that "xpub/xprv" distinction is the only >> useful feature of version, so user se if it stores public or private >> information. >> >> But using prefixes which doesn't enforce anything is even more dangerous. >> If somebody exports node "dogeblablabla", it creates false exceptations >> that there's only dogecoin stored. >> >> Marek >> > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Start Your Social Network Today - Download eXo Platform > Build your Enterprise Intranet with eXo Platform Software > Java Based Open Source Intranet - Social, Extensible, Cloud Ready > Get Started Now And Turn Your Intranet Into A Collaboration Platform > http://p.sf.net/sfu/ExoPlatform > _______________________________________________ > Bitcoin-development mailing list > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > > --089e0158b030302fa904f7ba0e7b Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Different users could have different gap limit requir= ements.=C2=A0 20 seems very low as the default.<br><br>A merchant could eas= ily send 20 addresses in a row to customers and none of them bother to actu= ally buy anything.<br> <br></div><div>Setting the gap limit to high is just a small extra cost in = that case.<br></div><div><br></div>Bip-32 serialization doesn't have a = way of adding meta data though.</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><di= v class=3D"gmail_quote"> On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 7:18 PM, slush <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mai= lto:slush@centrum.cz" target=3D"_blank">slush@centrum.cz</a>></span> wro= te:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-= left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> <div dir=3D"ltr">For those who don't follow github pull requests regula= rly; there's pull request for BIP64 defining HD wallet structure as dis= cussed in this thread:<div><br></div><div><a href=3D"https://github.com/bit= coin/bips/pull/52" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/5= 2</a><br> </div><div><br></div></div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><div cla= ss=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 = at 8:01 PM, slush <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:slush@centrum.cz"= target=3D"_blank">slush@centrum.cz</a>></span> wrote:<br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_ext= ra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 7:42 PM= , Pieter Wuille <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:pieter.wuille@gmail= .com" target=3D"_blank">pieter.wuille@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<block= quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc= solid;padding-left:1ex"> Storing the seed is superior to storing the master node already<br> (whether coin specific or not), as it is smaller.<br> <br></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>...Except that you're loosin= g flexibility (serialization, deserialization) which gives you BIP32 node.<= /div><div><br></div><div>I see "bip32 seed" as some transitional,= internal state from raw entropy to bip32 master node and this seed should = not be handled by the end user in any form. In the oposite, well-serialized= bip32 node (in xpriv, or even in mnemonic format) can be used very widely = and have no downsides against using raw "bip32 seed".</div> <div> <div>=C2=A0<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 = 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><br> </div>Fair enough, it would break strictly BIP32. Then again, BIP32 is a<br= > *Bitcoin* improvement proposal, and not something that necessarily<br> applies to other coins (they can adopt it of course, I don't care).<br> <br></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>I also don't care too much a= bout altcoins, but people want them so me, as infrastructure developer, nee= d to think about it. And I don't see any reason for breaking compatibil= ity between Bitcoin and other altcoins. I would be happier if there will be= another sentence than "Bitcoin seed", but honestly, who cares. I= t is just some magic string for hashing the raw seed...</div> <div> <div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8= ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> What I dislike is that this removes the ability of using the magic in<br> the serialization to prevent importing a chain from the wrong coin.<br></bl= ockquote><div><br></div></div><div>The truth is that even existing software= which handle bip32 don't care about 'version' at all. I think = that "xpub/xprv" distinction is the only useful feature of versio= n, so user se if it stores public or private information.</div> <div><br></div><div>But using prefixes which doesn't enforce anything i= s even more dangerous. If somebody exports node "dogeblablabla", = it creates false exceptations that there's only dogecoin stored.</div> <div><br></div><div>=C2=A0Marek</div></div></div></div> </blockquote></div><br></div> </div></div><br>-----------------------------------------------------------= -------------------<br> Start Your Social Network Today - Download eXo Platform<br> Build your Enterprise Intranet with eXo Platform Software<br> Java Based Open Source Intranet - Social, Extensible, Cloud Ready<br> Get Started Now And Turn Your Intranet Into A Collaboration Platform<br> <a href=3D"http://p.sf.net/sfu/ExoPlatform" target=3D"_blank">http://p.sf.n= et/sfu/ExoPlatform</a><br>_______________________________________________<b= r> Bitcoin-development mailing list<br> <a href=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net">Bitcoin-develo= pment@lists.sourceforge.net</a><br> <a href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development= " target=3D"_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-de= velopment</a><br> <br></blockquote></div><br></div> --089e0158b030302fa904f7ba0e7b--