Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org [172.17.192.35]) by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DA8CDDCE for ; Sun, 23 Dec 2018 22:41:04 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from mail-wm1-f49.google.com (mail-wm1-f49.google.com [209.85.128.49]) by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4D6E47C for ; Sun, 23 Dec 2018 22:41:04 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-wm1-f49.google.com with SMTP id r24so18167617wmh.0 for ; Sun, 23 Dec 2018 14:41:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:openpgp:autocrypt:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding :content-language; bh=w/E9kYBCrVlhgfE8PBhgz18x2ZH7R8N3pMgRvFhJV9Y=; b=PPvV3Uucn0J3MjEWWxiXMS8conWcFcyUX1C2Z2wnIafc5EHreEcbDLT+kFzpY4E/Pj 3J1qbQ8O5dmD1koT6L5rOa19x2e5BG926peGEAdVvpdsG9SoKmU1jcqr0/jIXAAIou2/ /5BjZNL3lJhuYXNOCoTRVBL6pvmPbjlLeiSjchZ06QdNTfSI4xsLNpM7s06ZnQqluL71 Z+ZBcb5nDh+MjBIYj9u9o+DMVWXqXXFgbgQlNgWbiISFS3bD6g8YMKq4blg828mPdbQ3 agFZYyInTSMalyA4i0yjUxraoJMh2c50Ygu1Y2DP6vggEaudaFzdA/AY5KqV7YEckJDS oehQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:openpgp:autocrypt :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding:content-language; bh=w/E9kYBCrVlhgfE8PBhgz18x2ZH7R8N3pMgRvFhJV9Y=; b=GwZfETmZQtpvWrqoplTjPyI4HHlEVCKsK/Tr/zayKS2/Y93O0Qfxi34bf/Vs64X5Fz 9f7FSMNnd4MY11NUtgofgIDnv8P0D3TANQOGYp1B8XRV+ErkYuQBwLysEdlyZHkjVO1L HkQMEKuyhHQOx4AlrkfOi2TvT+Ci8IjFisZ1KEfxmKtW2JgN5QvW95K8VLHSvOUp9OKd RBTKoE/HNXLxtGS/rRDxT5GOkme3Jm/5hr5zLwIB/QfQvdrDrR1+UG5fpGWFrxbuNrf9 GnWrw9Xq+ixDvHQIzM7usAm0Y3uGvL2MGNFwyH0jGeXIK5us+1sV8KBP9FzQq/uZd/nW I67Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AJcUukfBNJmlPEA+3xI0A9v9ECWd0P3WYcErG+jKk41L8zE3vazruahQ ycZEMzMfqvcWzx00f5dbqWuszJcO X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/VvQehYq3Zn0G45JQ109pZkpSQmMJKgg01OmdXgJsUSJiyxHEaODJ2DbBCunu9VEgunYnh0fw== X-Received: by 2002:a1c:8b09:: with SMTP id n9mr10223556wmd.38.1545604862522; Sun, 23 Dec 2018 14:41:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.10] (lfbn-mar-1-620-214.w90-118.abo.wanadoo.fr. [90.118.195.214]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id d16sm14058247wru.52.2018.12.23.14.41.01 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 23 Dec 2018 14:41:01 -0800 (PST) To: Pavol Rusnak , Bitcoin Protocol Discussion References: <68330522-7e7c-c3b4-99a9-1c68ddb56f23@gmail.com> From: Aymeric Vitte Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=vitteaymeric@gmail.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFdW8uABEAC7HJScbB2d/lmYoY5Cn9loEjJwfLs1LC3om030bWFGiH3Ceo5XeHUT94rw Pi+HaHU8ea94425SXIFsnqp/ouoT/8Ffn6vED0OoRmK0jE4fqDApXSpoL2mHX9PAGdUItMtD YrxBiBZNfMkctEsm4NrQ4TCvB3Yrm6Fc69inXJjUoYgPw5tHafEeI8Qwh0j99JZZDKcAqIra JF3MPc59rATz0qOJtRP9EpsPVFwjJe13zN6CHILwiVgrL8EtT5WKCVO6ATxh60LHi8+MwPxV V31zp/NNI5Hck+XocEMO98ZvUu9X8ZxmnOk/+9pBxXEwUqSGUNWdmPJLncpI23Usce3u/MOo M2C4T4rD4J0XrXiyBvbeTvwq4qVNlyggeWzlBH+YpEYgDctPq4gNh4eoTtAkf8URtBeke5bQ CGdaZt/jxv8nvmxs9V/iSyg5ldJLQktHStXOo0OZ7FEB2C6Ggtymm4hm2MHYg07Q1MGJrFLa oJZkJ3JeXnVsZMam7ypQtld6rRa96CvH+llXwux6aQ5hKdzmBBMQ10LlkZhkExgTawbeqdiG RMP2DjD5go6TPdAHS4NN34SBkrTWLqgWOjN/lnG77bbLnpMl0P+xBTuqw1oSXaDbcdHE2nGY lRno/ZZIfr+1Bq56DZLBX/WpnAT4f5WtofL4CxQM9SbG6byyewARAQABtCJBeW1lcmljIFZp dHRlIDxheW1lcmljQHBlZXJzbS5jb20+iQI/BBMBCAApBQJXVvLgAhsjBQkJZgGABwsJCAcD AgEGFQgCCQoLBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQKh17NCYnrDm3WhAAlYmgtSmtfqjBvQMqkmtqiQJA aZkzFZWt6+zroduHH5/Tp8jh73gFqCUyRrl/kcKvs2+XQhfrOwk1R6OScF25bpnrZSeuyJnZ MZu4T0P2tGS8YdddQvWUHMtI9ZnQRuYmuZT23/hgj1JnukuGvGLeY0yDUa1xFffPN39shp5X FPMcpIVOV3bs+xjAdsyfRyO3qJAD1FGiR7ggJeoaxUbKZ6NtcVUPPRMjVTKfopkuDwKY318m BE0epfxSZ/iRhsJ0/sREUWgbgq4/QvCFwBKzgz7fTikGmf8OELWSdofmXs7gOtmMc3el8fJu W8PVa/OsIQHDmwSzvxmE8ba5M8bdwOYEraTWFArIymAAtRXKxmuYpkqKfeSlbCwae3W+pgNT 8nKYRVAFlMtIxYkmPYyMTk9kCscmSqugGWbWdnqe/dhVaa31xa1qO1tDH24D2/tjCJRQt4Jk AEWNSmjCmjfeArMEFTGlZwMTAjVXErLSPbLOsZiZhD9sjvSbfzrtJiMli2h9+Dvds+AJk1PM O8LW7cCNyFoCk4OdAxzJHobZ25G+uy4NSQEHgxLC2iuh/tugz1tOHnQczPc/3AkVVI9A5DF1 gbVRBJh6rI7sAcwuR76uoOs0Rpp7r6I66xqU/5eq8g1OsJp89tw0ppSIa0YmaxNqQZ0l3rVX o/ZwpBjtNQS5Ag0EV1by4AEQANhlz3Ywff4dY1HTdn05v0wVUxZzW2PUih+96m6EhpUrD9BT vxriKtbgxm/zl+5YAlThbrk9f0QyVTHJ95Z1/M5qjuksP9Zn3qZ/8ylANDkN2s3z8Bq/LJA+ u7+APhMqyFWK0FqNCOogClvijiKPEzkU6tmDGO6wZ5pR/u8Fdq7DGQgwgyGZZc7qstte0M7l yx7bVRlPBqvd6kyX3YubQHzkctf46nFjiYZgKawdWFsA3PCdSBupbhixL5d/t1UK9ZTiQJcf 0uhHzT06qwolFrm/ugkLDHtE4Zo3BuKch47Sms8P2hJ08gABxeJHg0ZgkIUy/Xf4nHbDCBJw T8tE8pWYWA2ECiPNo0TOCMVOueEzISUNKINfCuFHSbMQU39hgt3ofxODbAjOiO3e/iu1ptck AkuVBdtjOBP4tHRGxVrbf5EuAV5U5xtiSxMwMgojg0GIXZjnT/8uvWqcLqtJILRMmmu+WNvD oxuiJzcTJhDai9oujmxQwcpMvgrBB89KSTDyitO5XVjZqaR7Zxvvn3rM4bAms/lotv9+pTyh spazTIxb80u0ifJ6y1RxAkxQCfWwps1i3VbsM6OKX78aUyOf5V4ihXF57M37tOqPRwFvz6a+ AIIhUNMTLo2H+o6Vw9qbX8SUxPHPs6YpJ8lWQJ9OMWHE+SbaDFAi/D5hYRubABEBAAGJAiUE GAEIAA8FAldW8uACGwwFCQlmAYAACgkQKh17NCYnrDmk4Q/9Fuu0h5HvIiO3ieYA2StdE7hO vv2THuesjJDsj6aQUTgknaxKptJogNe3dDyIT+FHxXmCw0Nrbm9Q3ryl80z/G9utfFNO3Gwc q31QW3n3LJHnpqdrV3WsRzT5NwJMVtiIAGRrX8ZomtarWHT0PeEHC2xBdFzRrJtmkrwer0Wc 0nBzD7vk1XEXC9nODbmlgsesoHFgRwQBst3wClCbX1gv8aSfxQNpaf9UBC8DmyrQ621UXpBo PvcFEtWxV44vJfP0WOLCCN0Pzv2F2I66iKo7VMqbr5jlNAXJN9I1hXb7qwYJmBC9j5oeEoqv A9d44WWpxrdAr8qih4Nv89k9+9F6NoqORY3FGuVDKiW8CVhCmGT7bIvNeyicVBZFipXqPcKL VFduO2c5Ubc2npMWLUF1k9JJc9tH75l3+F/0RbYVTzGAZ+zSaudwR6h8YiCN2DBZGZkJEZbh 3X/l6jtijMN/W9sPHyyKvm/TmeEC27S3TqZPZ8PUQLxZC70V6gMbenh01JdSQsn5t8Ru0RNh Blt0g7IyZyIKCE9b+TyzbYpX6qgqEBUHia5b0vyPtQacWQlZ8uqnghAqNkLluEsy7Q/7xG6M wXUYEDsFOmB9dKOzcAOIhpxlVjSKu5mzXJ11sEtE8nyF5NJ/riCA7FGcjlki3zIpzQUNo9v7 vXl2h6Tivlk= Message-ID: Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2018 23:41:00 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.3.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: fr X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU, FREEMAIL_FROM, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 24 Dec 2018 14:47:55 +0000 Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP39 seeds X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2018 22:41:05 -0000 Exactly This is surprising, I would have expected the probabilities to be much more lower It just means that scanning whatever (secret) book, document, link, etc, you will find easily BIP39 seeds, even of 24 words So, it just means that you don't have to write your seed since you can recover it that way, given a secret source and specific algo with custom parameters, this could be used for plausible deniability also For now I still dislike BIP39 and alike (because I don't see very well why it's easier to write n words that you cannot choose rather than a 32B BIP32 hex seed, and I have seen many people completely lost with their wallets because of this), but I could change my mind, and despite of further improvements for this ratio, could what I am suggesting make sense? Le 23/12/2018 à 19:46, Pavol Rusnak a écrit : > On 22/12/2018 00:58, Aymeric Vitte via bitcoin-dev wrote: >> Has anybody already looked at this: given N randomly chosen words >> belonging to a BIP39 2048 words dictionary, what is the probability to >> get a "valid" BIP39 seed (ie with the right checksum)? > 1:256 for 24 words > 1:16 for 12 words > > This ratio is not too great and will be improved in the upcoming SLIP39 > standard: https://github.com/satoshilabs/slips/blob/master/slip-0039.md >