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From: Angel Leon <gubatron@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 13:47:40 +0000
Message-ID: <CADZB0_bgD9BoJVJOK1S-LXZ+Mikabj9CZZoMY7OorxtR6HVhXA@mail.gmail.com>
To: udevNull <udevnull@protonmail.ch>, "bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org"
	<bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11406f3c387b0a054d8545bc
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Small Nodes: A Better Alternative to Pruned Nodes
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>Financially incentivising nodes is a really weird area because it would
allow someone to essentially automate the deployment of nodes. i.e. if a
node can pay for itself 100% (even at a lesser value, it just becomes
cheaper overall), you could write an application that uses an AWS API or a
digital ocean API to automatically deploy 100's of nodes. Which sounds
great but not if that person is malicious and wants to prevent the
community adopting proposals.

what other projects have done to avoid such attacks (while incentivizing
economically running full nodes) is to only distribute part of the block
rewards back such nodes if that node has committed/frozen a predetermined
amount of coins that can't be spent. This also leaves less liquidity for
market speculation and a incentives for long term commitments.

On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 5:14 AM udevNull via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

> I'd like to add to this. There is definitely a barrier of entry with
> regards to setting up a full node. Unless you're living in a first world
> country, the bandwidth requirements alone, will outright prevent you from
> even setting up a full node (sync since genesis).
>
> To maintain that also becomes a sunk cost, as there is no financial
> incentive to run a node, only an idealogical one. Most of the people who
> benefit and will benefit from Bitcoin, are the un-banked. Which you will
> find in 3rd world countries, that don't have ISPs that provide the data
> packages, to cater for the requirements of running a full node. I'm sure
> many would like to, but simply cannot afford it.
>
> A user may not want to run a node at home, but rather on a digital ocean
> or AWS server, which they cannot afford to do either considering the
> bandwidth and storage costs associated with it. However, I don't think they
> should be excluded from participating in the network (supporting proposals,
> voicing their opinions, running their own wallets, writing their own
> applications on top of Bitcoin [which I think is extremely important]).
>
> So I would definitely be in favour of a small node of sorts. It will
> present us with some interesting technical challenges along the way but
> it's definitely worth while looking into.
>
> Financially incentivising nodes is a really weird area because it would
> allow someone to essentially automate the deployment of nodes. i.e. if a
> node can pay for itself 100% (even at a lesser value, it just becomes
> cheaper overall), you could write an application that uses an AWS API or a
> digital ocean API to automatically deploy 100's of nodes. Which sounds
> great but not if that person is malicious and wants to prevent the
> community adopting proposals.
> Just my 2 cents worth.
>
>
> Sent with ProtonMail <https://protonmail.com> Secure Email.
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">&gt;<span style=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33)">Financially incent=
ivising nodes is a really weird area because it would allow someone to esse=
ntially automate the deployment of nodes. i.e. if a node can pay for itself=
 100% (even at a lesser value, it just becomes cheaper overall), you could =
write an application that uses an AWS API or a digital ocean API to automat=
ically deploy 100&#39;s of nodes. Which sounds great but not if that person=
 is malicious and wants to prevent the community adopting proposals.</span>=
<br><br>what other projects have done to avoid such attacks (while incentiv=
izing economically running full nodes) is to only distribute part of the bl=
ock rewards back such nodes if that node has committed/frozen a predetermin=
ed amount of coins that can&#39;t be spent. This also leaves less liquidity=
 for market speculation and a incentives for long term commitments.</div><b=
r><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 5:14 =
AM udevNull via bitcoin-dev &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfo=
undation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1=
px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><p>I&#39;d like to add to this. There is de=
finitely a barrier of entry
      with regards to setting up a full node. Unless you&#39;re living in a
      first world country, the bandwidth requirements alone, will
      outright prevent you from even setting up a full node (sync since
      genesis).<br></p><p>To maintain that also becomes a sunk cost, as the=
re is no
      financial incentive to run a node, only an idealogical one. Most
      of the people who benefit and will benefit from Bitcoin, are the
      un-banked. Which you will find in 3rd world countries, that don&#39;t
      have ISPs that provide the data packages, to cater for the
      requirements of running a full node. I&#39;m sure many would like to,
      but simply cannot afford it.<br></p><p>A user may not want to run a n=
ode at home, but rather on a
      digital ocean or AWS server, which they cannot afford to do either
      considering the bandwidth and storage costs associated with it.
      However, I don&#39;t think they should be excluded from participating
      in the network (supporting proposals, voicing their opinions,
      running their own wallets, writing their own applications on top
      of Bitcoin [which I think is extremely important]).<br></p><p>So I wo=
uld definitely be in favour of a small node of sorts. It will present us wi=
th some interesting technical challenges
      along the way but it&#39;s definitely worth while looking into.<br></=
p><p>Financially incentivising nodes is a really weird area because it
      would allow someone to essentially automate the deployment of
      nodes. i.e. if a node can pay for itself 100% (even at a lesser
      value, it just becomes cheaper overall), you could write an
      application that uses an AWS API or a digital ocean API to
      automatically deploy 100&#39;s of nodes. Which sounds great but not i=
f
      that person is malicious and wants to prevent the community
      adopting proposals.<br></p><div>Just my 2 cents worth.<br></div><div>=
<br></div><div class=3D"m_4346759367992423716protonmail_signature_block"><d=
iv class=3D"m_4346759367992423716protonmail_signature_block-user m_43467593=
67992423716protonmail_signature_block-empty"><br></div><div class=3D"m_4346=
759367992423716protonmail_signature_block-proton">Sent with <a href=3D"http=
s://protonmail.com" target=3D"_blank">ProtonMail</a> Secure Email.<br></div=
></div><div><br></div>_______________________________________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">=
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mail=
man/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

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