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From: vjudeu@gazeta.pl
To: "Eric Voskuil <eric@voskuil.org>,
 Bitcoin Protocol Discussion" <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>,
 Bram Cohen <bram@chia.net>,
 Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
In-Reply-To: <3D3BFE9C-CFF3-49FF-840F-063B52C69A42@voskuil.org>
Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2022 06:35:16 +0200
Message-Id: <164256450-0ee6752f92c0be297952fc72b59076df@pmq5v.m5r2.onet>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] No Order Mnemonic
Precedence: list

Isn't it enough to just generate a seed in the same way as today, then sort=
 the words alphabetically, and then use that as a seed? I know, the last wo=
rd is a checksum, but there are only 2048 words, so it is not a big deal to=
 get any checksum we want. If that is insecure, because of lower possible c=
ombinations, then it is always possible to increase the number of words to =
compensate that.


On 2022-07-08 04:27:21 user Eric Voskuil via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists=
.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:


Without a performance requirement there is no reason you can=E2=80=99t stor=
e the BIP39 words in any order you want. So it=E2=80=99s certainly possible=
, just brute force the recovery. If you have less than a second vs. a few d=
ays then it=E2=80=99s a different question.


e


On Jul 7, 2022, at 18:48, Bram Cohen via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.lin=
uxfoundation.org> wrote:
Part of the rules of my challenge is that the 'new' words need to be in the=
 same pool as the 'old' words, so any ordering is okay. Without that requir=
ement it's mathematically very straightforward.


On Thu, Jul 7, 2022 at 10:52 AM Pavol Rusnak <stick@satoshilabs.com> wrote:
There is. Just encode the index of permutation used to scramble the otherwi=
se sorted list. For 12 words you need to store 12! =3D ~32 bits so 3 words =
should be enough.=C2=A0


Repetitions make this more difficult, though.=C2=A0


On Thu 7. 7. 2022 at 19:41, Bram Cohen via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.l=
inuxfoundation.org> wrote:
On Thu, Jul 7, 2022 at 7:43 AM Anton Shevchenko via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-de=
v@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
I made a python implementation for a different mnemonic encoding. The encod=
ing requires user to remember words but not the order of those words.
The code is open (MIT license) at https://github.com/sancoder/noomnem


Thanks Anton. There's an interesting mathematical question of whether it's =
possible to make a code like this which always uses the BIP-39 words for th=
e same key as part of its encoding, basically adding a few words as error c=
orrection in case the order is lost or confused. If the BIP-39 contains a d=
uplicate you can add an extra word.
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