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From: Jameson Lopp <jameson.lopp@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2017 11:55:04 -0700
Message-ID: <CADL_X_e0wuKTUbAiYyuDuk74+DQ98j1kkmBPz5c5RjU4R7RB3Q@mail.gmail.com>
To: Zheming Lin <heater@gmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a113de1de220acb0551f017ff"
Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Proposal: Demonstration of Phase in Full Network
 Upgrade Activated by Miners
Precedence: list

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 11:29 AM, Zheming Lin <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:heater@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">heater@gmail.com</a>&gt;=
</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .=
8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:br=
eak-word;line-break:after-white-space"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;l=
ine-break:after-white-space">Hi Jameson:<br><div><br><blockquote type=3D"ci=
te"><span class=3D""><div>=E5=9C=A8 2017=E5=B9=B46=E6=9C=8815=E6=97=A5=EF=
=BC=8C01:20=EF=BC=8CJameson Lopp &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jameson.lopp@gmail.c=
om" target=3D"_blank">jameson.lopp@gmail.com</a>&gt; =E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=
=BC=9A</div><br class=3D"m_4937264445905329853Apple-interchange-newline"></=
span><div><br class=3D"m_4937264445905329853Apple-interchange-newline"><br =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varian=
t-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;tex=
t-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-st=
yle:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:norma=
l;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;w=
ord-spacing:0px"><span class=3D"">On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 9:39 AM, Zheming =
Lin via bitcoin-dev<span class=3D"m_4937264445905329853Apple-converted-spac=
e">=C2=A0</span><span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.l=
inuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev@<wbr>lists.linuxfoundatio=
n.org</a>&gt;</span><span class=3D"m_4937264445905329853Apple-converted-spa=
ce">=C2=A0</span>wro<wbr>te:<br></span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" st=
yle=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:sol=
id;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><span class=3D""><s=
pan><br><br>&gt; =E5=9C=A8 2017=E5=B9=B46=E6=9C=8814=E6=97=A5=EF=BC=8C02:11=
=EF=BC=8CGregory Maxwell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:greg@xiph.org" target=3D"_bl=
ank">greg@xiph.org</a>&gt; =E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A<br>&gt;<br>&gt; On T=
ue, Jun 13, 2017 at 2:23 AM, Zheming Lin via bitcoin-dev<br>&gt; &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">bitcoi=
n-dev@lists.linuxfounda<wbr>tion.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></span></span><span =
class=3D""><span><br>&gt; The enforcement of the system&#39;s rules by user=
s broadly, and not just<br>&gt; miners, is specifically described in the wh=
ite paper (section 8,<br>&gt; paragraph 2, it especially clear in the last =
sentence).=C2=A0 This is<br>&gt; critical for the security of Bitcoin espec=
ially with the current<br>&gt; degree of centralization in pools.=C2=A0 Wit=
hout it, Bitcoin&#39;s security<br>&gt; would look a lot more like the Ripp=
le system.<br>&gt;<br><br></span>=E6=98=AF=E7=9A=84=EF=BC=8C=E7=94=A8=E6=88=
=B7=E6=B0=B8=E8=BF=9C=E9=83=BD=E6=9C=89=E9=80=89=E6=8B=A9=EF=BC=8C=E5=B9=B6=
=E5=8F=AF=E4=BB=A5=E6=8A=9B=E5=BC=83=E9=82=A3=E4=BA=9B=E8=8A=82=E7=82=B9=E3=
=80=82=E8=BF=99=E4=B8=AA BIP =E5=B9=B6=E6=B2=A1=E6=9C=89=E5=8F=8D=E5=AF=B9=
=E8=BF=99=E4=BA=9B=E7=94=A8=E6=88=B7=E8=BF=99=E4=B9=88=E5=81=9A=E3=80=82=E5=
=8F=AA=E6=9C=89=E9=82=A3=E4=BA=9B=E8=A2=AB=E5=8A=A8=E7=9A=84=E9=92=B1=E5=8C=
=85=E7=94=A8=E6=88=B7=EF=BC=8C=E4=BB=96=E4=BB=AC=E9=9C=80=E8=A6=81=E7=9F=A5=
<wbr>=E9=81=93=E5=BF=85=E9=A1=BB=E5=81=9A=E5=87=BA=E4=B8=80=E4=B8=AA=E9=80=
=89=E6=8B=A9=E3=80=82=EF=BC=88=E8=80=8C=E4=B8=8D=E6=98=AF=E8=A2=AB=E5=8A=A8=
=E7=9A=84=E8=B7=9F=E9=9A=8F=E9=BB=98=E8=AE=A4=E7=9A=84=E7=AD=96=E7=95=A5=EF=
=BC=89<br>Yes, users always have choice that they can abandon the nodes. Th=
is BIP does=E2=80=99t go against them. I mean only the one(especially walle=
ts) that=E2=80=99s passive, they need to know there=E2=80=99s a choice and =
pick one.<br><br>=E8=BF=99=E4=B8=AA BIP =E5=8F=AF=E4=BB=A5=E8=A2=AB=E5=BA=
=94=E7=94=A8=E4=BA=8E=E5=87=A0=E4=B9=8E=E4=BB=BB=E4=BD=95=E7=9A=84=E5=8D=87=
=E7=BA=A7=E4=B8=8A=EF=BC=8C=E5=8C=85=E6=8B=AC=E9=9A=94=E7=A6=BB=E8=A7=81=E8=
=AF=81=EF=BC=8C=E4=B8=A4=E5=85=86=E7=9A=84=E9=9A=94=E7=A6=BB=E8=A7=81=E8=AF=
=81=EF=BC=8C<wbr>=E4=B8=A4=E5=85=86=E6=89=A9=E5=AE=B9=EF=BC=8C=E6=B6=8C=E7=
=8E=B0=E5=85=B1=E8=AF=86=EF=BC=8C=E5=85=AB=E5=85=86=E6=89=A9=E5=AE=B9=E7=AD=
=89=E3=80=82=E4=BD=86=E8=BF=99=E4=BA=9B=E5=8D=87=E7=BA=A7=E5=B9=B6=E4=B8=8D=
=E6=98=AF=E9=87=8D=E7=82=B9=E3=80=82<br>This BIP can be applied to almost a=
ny upgrade, including Segwit, Segwit2x, 2m, ec, 8m=E2=80=A6 but the upgrade=
 is not the key point.<br><br>=E5=88=B0=E5=BA=95=E6=88=91=E4=BB=AC=E7=9A=84=
=E7=94=A8=E6=88=B7=E6=98=AF=E5=90=A6=E7=9C=9F=E7=9A=84=E6=8B=A5=E6=9C=89=E9=
=80=89=E6=8B=A9=EF=BC=9F<br>Did the users have any real choice?<br><br>=E6=
=88=91=E5=B9=B6=E4=B8=8D=E8=83=BD=E7=90=86=E8=A7=A3=E4=BB=96=E4=BB=AC=E7=9B=
=B8=E4=BF=A1=E5=A4=A7=E9=83=A8=E5=88=86=E7=9F=BF=E5=B7=A5=EF=BC=88=E5=B0=B1=
=E5=83=8F=E5=BD=93=E5=89=8D=E4=B8=80=E6=A0=B7=EF=BC=89=EF=BC=8C=E4=BD=86=E6=
=8B=92=E7=BB=9D=E8=BF=99=E4=BA=9B=E5=A4=9A<wbr>=E6=95=B0=E7=9F=BF=E5=B7=A5=
=E5=AF=B9=E5=8D=8F=E8=AE=AE=E6=94=B9=E5=8F=98=E7=9A=84=E6=8A=95=E7=A5=A8=E7=
=BB=93=E6=9E=9C=E3=80=82<br>I don=E2=80=99t see the reason they trust the m=
ajority miners(as they do today) but refuse the vote for upcoming protocol =
upgrade.<br></span></blockquote><span class=3D""><div><br></div><div>To be =
clear, Bitcoin is not a democracy - if you find yourself using the term &qu=
ot;voting&quot; then you may be misunderstanding how consensus forms. Once =
a feature has been vetted and the code is deployed, miners may signal that =
they are ready to enforce new rules. If for some reason miners are too &quo=
t;passive or lazy&quot; or wish to &quot;veto&quot; the activation of the n=
ew rules, users may choose to circumvent said veto by refusing to accept bl=
ocks that do not show readiness for enforcing the new rules.</div></span></=
div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>How does the users show their op=
inion? They can fork away and leave. But what remains will be united. Are y=
ou afraid of the united users or the fork?</div><div><br></div><div>I agree=
 with you that the =E2=80=9Cvote=E2=80=9D is not accurate. Could you kindly=
 suggest an other word for that?</div><div><br></div><div>I think users sho=
uld have choice to follow the miners or not. Do you agree with this or not?=
</div><span class=3D""><br></span></div></div></div></blockquote><div>Regar=
ding consensus changes, users can voice their opinion on any number of comm=
unication platforms. Though if you&#39;re looking for a way for users to si=
gnal their intentions at the protocol level, every proposal for doing that =
to date has been arguably flawed. Measuring meatspace consensus is pretty t=
ricky if not completely impossible, especially given the fact that the vast=
 majority of Bitcoin users do not voice any opinions on the matter of conse=
nsus rules.</div><div><br></div><div>Most attempts at measuring user consen=
sus would probably be best described as signaling rather than voting given =
that the act of doing so has no actual power to affect consensus. Every use=
r who runs a fully validating node is free to enforce the rules with which =
the agree regardless of what rules other entities are enforcing.=C2=A0</div=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1=
px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-bre=
ak:after-white-space"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-w=
hite-space"><div><span class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:n=
ormal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;tex=
t-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-s=
pacing:0px"><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-=
left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>=E5=AF=B9=E9=92=B1=E5=8C=
=85=E7=94=A8=E6=88=B7=E7=9A=84=E9=80=89=E6=8B=A9=EF=BC=8C=E6=98=AF=E4=BB=96=
=E4=BB=AC=E6=98=AF=E5=90=A6=E7=9B=B8=E4=BF=A1=E5=A4=9A=E6=95=B0=E7=9F=BF=E5=
=B7=A5=E3=80=82=E5=A6=82=E6=9E=9C=E4=BB=96=E4=BB=AC=E4=B8=8D=E7=9B=B8=E4=BF=
=A1=EF=BC=8C=E5=8F=AF<wbr>=E4=BB=A5=E9=80=9A=E8=BF=87=E5=88=86=E5=8F=89=E6=
=9D=A5=E6=B6=88=E9=99=A4=E6=8E=89=E7=9F=BF=E5=B7=A5=E3=80=82<br>This choice=
 for wallet users right now, is wether to follow the 51% majority miners. I=
f they don=E2=80=99t, they can have their fork that get rid of miners.<br><=
br>=E5=A6=82=E6=9E=9C=E4=BB=96=E4=BB=AC=E4=BB=8D=E6=97=A7=E7=9B=B8=E4=BF=A1=
=E7=9F=BF=E5=B7=A5=EF=BC=8C=E9=82=A3=E4=B9=88=E5=8F=AF=E4=BB=A5=E7=95=99=E4=
=B8=8B=E6=9D=A5=E5=B9=B6=E8=B7=9F=E9=9A=8F=E7=9F=BF=E5=B7=A5=E5=B0=86=E6=9D=
=A5=E7=9A=84=E5=8D=8F=E8=AE=AE=E6=94=B9=E5=8F=98<wbr>=E3=80=82<br>If they d=
o trust the majority miners, they stay and follow the vote for upcoming pro=
tocol upgrade.<br><br>=E6=89=80=E4=BB=A5=E9=97=AE=E9=A2=98=E5=9C=A8=E4=BA=
=8E=EF=BC=9A=E6=AF=94=E7=89=B9=E5=B8=81=E7=9A=84=E5=BC=80=E5=8F=91=E8=80=85=
=E3=80=81=E7=94=A8=E6=88=B7=E3=80=81=E6=8B=A5=E6=9C=89=E8=80=85=E3=80=81=E6=
=9C=8D=E5=8A=A1=E6=8F=90=E4=BE=9B=E8=80=85=E3=80=81=E7=94=9A=E8=87=B3<wbr>=
=E7=9F=BF=E5=B7=A5=EF=BC=8C=E6=98=AF=E5=90=A6=EF=BC=88=E4=BB=8D=E7=84=B6=EF=
=BC=89=E5=A6=82=E7=99=BD=E7=9A=AE=E4=B9=A6=E4=B8=AD=E6=8F=8F=E8=BF=B0=E7=9A=
=84=E5=AF=B9=E5=A4=A7=E5=A4=9A=E6=95=B0=E7=9F=BF=E5=B7=A5=E6=8B=A5=E6=9C=89=
=E4=BF=A1=E4=BB=BB=E3=80=82<br>So the questions is: Do the bitcoin develope=
rs, users, holders, service provides, even miners, (still) have faith in th=
e majority of miners as designed in the white paper?<br><span><br></span></=
blockquote><div>=C2=A0</div><div>There is a fundamental misconception regar=
ding this point - the white paper refers to majority hashpower needing to b=
e honest with regard to determining the correct chain within the context of=
 many possible /valid/ chain forks. It is not referring to using hashpower =
to determine the correct chain amongst an infinitely variable number of cur=
rently invalid chain forks. Bitcoin ecosystem participants should not have =
faith in miners (or any other entity) when it comes to choosing the consens=
us rules they wish to enforce.</div><div><br></div></div></div></blockquote=
><div><br></div></span><div>Arrrgh. I think in the BIP, the miners just inv=
alids tx version 1 temporarily. That=E2=80=99s a =E2=80=9Csoft fork=E2=80=
=9D right? If they dislike the idea, they can leave as always.</div><div><b=
r></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div>From my understanding, if the o=
nly change miners make is to stop confirming transactions that have a versi=
on less than X then it should be a soft fork, yes.=C2=A0</div><blockquote c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;=
padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white=
-space"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><d=
iv><div></div><div><br></div><div>Regards</div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font=
 color=3D"#888888"><div><br></div><div>LIN Zheming</div><blockquote type=3D=
"cite"><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-=
size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;let=
ter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;whi=
te-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;=
border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"m_493726=
4445905329853HOEnZb"><div class=3D"m_4937264445905329853h5"></div></div></b=
lockquote></div></div></blockquote></font></span></div><br></div></div></bl=
ockquote></div><br></div></div>

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