Received: from sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.191] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-4.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from <mark@monetize.io>) id 1WJp0F-0008VC-9u for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Sat, 01 Mar 2014 18:51:15 +0000 Received: from mail-qg0-f43.google.com ([209.85.192.43]) by sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) id 1WJp0D-0004cO-Cy for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Sat, 01 Mar 2014 18:51:15 +0000 Received: by mail-qg0-f43.google.com with SMTP id f51so6386764qge.2 for <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>; Sat, 01 Mar 2014 10:51:07 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=2s/kq0rltkBw5UZH0qCcObfE2U5Cww5T7quPUglvPhU=; b=HOCdxQm2mbWuUYKB+yTt9rnbW9vwSPVfj10ln7+fGnK6716luWPnJ2lUZf9fOZCr3N v/0DKWkCDQQcnmDzFNloFeCjYHsTR9AojjbbGOcAqVPBu1N5hGDy9v8AfBfiUfWRGLG8 Vt6vaIiUlyoC0RAi6dh/ztDfElxsl/09VKB/mUPJ/isM5bcXo3pYfX8vNoyrs6bW0bvj 22hRwTPIC4oWYnD8FRSevaarN7dS8wZI+vqW+gpgZRy6WYBnFLfyqMrM82ziiOJt6GG/ dAZfpiLGY6Vw2LoEJTb5MXx/8CH0/SM+EAYcVzW9Pf0Bw/BNE1r4AhHr1hAXmPB3sxjp lISw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnQwIZNbNle7d8gCqNk9cyYy8CGYTW8z3Ys92Ktu58BVRcZPfPxZSCcZ490fyfazWn7lmt5 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.140.47.101 with SMTP id l92mr12218830qga.9.1393698502353; Sat, 01 Mar 2014 10:28:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.140.106.165 with HTTP; Sat, 1 Mar 2014 10:28:22 -0800 (PST) X-Originating-IP: [70.197.6.187] Received: by 10.140.106.165 with HTTP; Sat, 1 Mar 2014 10:28:22 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <CAJHLa0NMbeVneL3oYkuSUYXgoJYsEjQk_QFuzKZizYWfQnpWvw@mail.gmail.com> References: <20140209180458.GB20126@savin> <20140209204434.GA11488@savin> <20140210193247.GC17359@savin> <20140211175919.GV3180@nl.grid.coop> <20140214052159.GF31437@savin> <20140217054751.GY3180@nl.grid.coop> <CAC1+kJNTq2sMbORAU-HBSpTVE3ohzsxHrxXw9JOXZp5ux32Gtw@mail.gmail.com> <20140228013719.GA5786@savin> <CAC1+kJPL0NpzihMUfuOvEaE8LoKZehS0PbXFCVMu4_N5MJCJfA@mail.gmail.com> <20140301174513.GP3180@nl.grid.coop> <CAJHLa0NMbeVneL3oYkuSUYXgoJYsEjQk_QFuzKZizYWfQnpWvw@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2014 10:28:22 -0800 Message-ID: <CACh7GpH2YDr2LBgnoxmNSwrufryzYwXkuo6uTk3-reRGCx6t8w@mail.gmail.com> From: Mark Friedenbach <mark@monetize.io> To: Jeff Garzik <jgarzik@bitpay.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c1640e2863b604f38fb8ce X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [209.85.192.43 listed in list.dnswl.org] 1.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message X-Headers-End: 1WJp0D-0004cO-Cy Cc: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Decentralized digital asset exchange with honest pricing and market depth X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: <bitcoin-development.lists.sourceforge.net> List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development>, <mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_name=bitcoin-development> List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net> List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development>, <mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2014 18:51:15 -0000 --001a11c1640e2863b604f38fb8ce Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Only if you view bitcoin as no more than a payment network. On Mar 1, 2014 10:24 AM, "Jeff Garzik" <jgarzik@bitpay.com> wrote: > This is wandering far off-topic for this mailing list. > > On Sat, Mar 1, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Troy Benjegerdes <hozer@hozed.org> wrote: > >> > You can make the same argument against Bitcoin itself you know... > >> > > >> > A Bitmessage-like network would be trivial to front-run via a sybil > >> > attack. It's the fundemental problem with marketplaces - the data > >> > they're trying to publish has to be public. > >> > >> I don't see the Bitcoin analogy... > >> Anyway, I still don't think the seller cares, if he sells at the price > >> he was asking, what would he care about "front running" those parallel > >> networks. > >> I've seen many street markets without "public information" and they > >> work just well. > > > > The spot price for ammonia fertilizer, refined gasoline at terminals, > > and price of tea in china are not 'public information', yet these are > > some of the largest traded commodities in the world, far exceeding > > the drop in the bucket that all cryptocoin transactions make. > > > > I'd further argue that the *actual* price of corn (cash bid price at > > elevators and ethanol plants) is not public information either. There > > is a great deal of money traded in collecting and then distributing the > > 'cleared price' information. Have a look at > > > http://www.interquote.com/template.cfm?navgroup=aboutlist&urlcode=12&view=1 > > > > > >> >> I don't think this will be a tragedy, because like we discussed on > >> >> IRC, I don't think the primary goal of markets is price discovery, > but > >> >> trade itself. > >> >> > >> >> About historic data, the actual trades are always public, and some > >> >> kind of "archivers" could collect and maintain old orders for > historic > >> >> bid and asks, etc. > >> > > >> > And again, how do you know that record is honest? Fact is without > >> > proof-of-publication you just don't. > >> > >> Well, the trades that appeared in the chain actually occurred. > >> Buying to yourself at fake prices? Be careful, the miner could just > >> separate the order and fill it himself. Or anyone paying a higher fee, > >> for that matter. > > > > You just made my long-term strategic argument for investing in my own > > mining hardware so I can be sure to trade reliably. > > > >> Again, you haven't addressed why the seller cares more about "accurate > >> historic market data" than just his own fees and sell. > >> > >> > You mean a reverse nLockTime that makes a transaction invalid after a > >> > certain amount of time - that's dangerous in a reorg unfortunately as > it > >> > can make transactions permenantly invalid. > > > > People who take money from buyers and sellers care most about 'accurate > > historic market data'. I just want to exchange my corn for e85, > fertilizer, > > and electricity, and audit the code that runs accounting for the > exchange. > > > > I really don't give a shit if there is 'accurate historic market data' as > > long as **MY** personal trade data is accurate and I got a good enough > price, > > and I know who I'm dealing with. > > > > I know someone smarter than me and with more money, market leverage, and > > political connections **WILL** game the system and distort the market > data > > history so they can take more money from buyers and sellers without > actually > > doing some usefull market function. > > > > As long as use buyers and sellers can see the code, and have a good eye > for > > knowing when someone's pushing the market around, we can just put our > orders > > in and relieve some speculators of their money. > > > > Just get me working code for cross-chain trades, and we'll work on the > > accurate historic data problem later. > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Troy Benjegerdes 'da hozer' > hozer@hozed.org > > 7 elements earth::water::air::fire::mind::spirit::soul > grid.coop > > > > Never pick a fight with someone who buys ink by the barrel, > > nor try buy a hacker who makes money by the megahash > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Flow-based real-time traffic analytics software. Cisco certified tool. > > Monitor traffic, SLAs, QoS, Medianet, WAAS etc. with NetFlow Analyzer > > Customize your own dashboards, set traffic alerts and generate reports. > > Network behavioral analysis & security monitoring. All-in-one tool. > > > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=126839071&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk > > _______________________________________________ > > Bitcoin-development mailing list > > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > > > > -- > Jeff Garzik > Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist > BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/ > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Flow-based real-time traffic analytics software. Cisco certified tool. > Monitor traffic, SLAs, QoS, Medianet, WAAS etc. with NetFlow Analyzer > Customize your own dashboards, set traffic alerts and generate reports. > Network behavioral analysis & security monitoring. All-in-one tool. > > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=126839071&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk > _______________________________________________ > Bitcoin-development mailing list > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > --001a11c1640e2863b604f38fb8ce Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <p dir=3D"ltr">Only if you view bitcoin as no more than a payment network.<= /p> <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mar 1, 2014 10:24 AM, "Jeff Garzik"= <<a href=3D"mailto:jgarzik@bitpay.com">jgarzik@bitpay.com</a>> wrote= :<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin= :0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> This is wandering far off-topic for this mailing list.<br> <br> On Sat, Mar 1, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Troy Benjegerdes <<a href=3D"mailto:hoz= er@hozed.org">hozer@hozed.org</a>> wrote:<br> >> > You can make the same argument against Bitcoin itself you kno= w...<br> >> ><br> >> > A Bitmessage-like network would be trivial to front-run via a= sybil<br> >> > attack. It's the fundemental problem with marketplaces - = the data<br> >> > they're trying to publish has to be public.<br> >><br> >> I don't see the Bitcoin analogy...<br> >> Anyway, I still don't think the seller cares, if he sells at t= he price<br> >> he was asking, what would he care about "front running" = those parallel<br> >> networks.<br> >> I've seen many street markets without "public information= " and they<br> >> work just well.<br> ><br> > The spot price for ammonia fertilizer, refined gasoline at terminals,<= br> > and price of tea in china are not 'public information', yet th= ese are<br> > some of the largest traded commodities in the world, far exceeding<br> > the drop in the bucket that all cryptocoin transactions make.<br> ><br> > I'd further argue that the *actual* price of corn (cash bid price = at<br> > elevators and ethanol plants) is not public information either. There<= br> > is a great deal of money traded in collecting and then distributing th= e<br> > 'cleared price' information. Have a look at<br> > <a href=3D"http://www.interquote.com/template.cfm?navgroup=3Daboutlist= &urlcode=3D12&view=3D1" target=3D"_blank">http://www.interquote.com= /template.cfm?navgroup=3Daboutlist&urlcode=3D12&view=3D1</a><br> ><br> ><br> >> >> I don't think this will be a tragedy, because like we= discussed on<br> >> >> IRC, I don't think the primary goal of markets is pri= ce discovery, but<br> >> >> trade itself.<br> >> >><br> >> >> About historic data, the actual trades are always public,= and some<br> >> >> kind of "archivers" could collect and maintain = old orders for historic<br> >> >> bid and asks, etc.<br> >> ><br> >> > And again, how do you know that record is honest? Fact is wit= hout<br> >> > proof-of-publication you just don't.<br> >><br> >> Well, the trades that appeared in the chain actually occurred.<br> >> Buying to yourself at fake prices? Be careful, the miner could jus= t<br> >> separate the order and fill it himself. Or anyone paying a higher = fee,<br> >> for that matter.<br> ><br> > You just made my long-term strategic argument for investing in my own<= br> > mining hardware so I can be sure to trade reliably.<br> ><br> >> Again, you haven't addressed why the seller cares more about &= quot;accurate<br> >> historic market data" than just his own fees and sell.<br> >><br> >> > You mean a reverse nLockTime that makes a transaction invalid= after a<br> >> > certain amount of time - that's dangerous in a reorg unfo= rtunately as it<br> >> > can make transactions permenantly invalid.<br> ><br> > People who take money from buyers and sellers care most about 'acc= urate<br> > historic market data'. I just want to exchange my corn for e85, fe= rtilizer,<br> > and electricity, and audit the code that runs accounting for the excha= nge.<br> ><br> > I really don't give a shit if there is 'accurate historic mark= et data' as<br> > long as **MY** personal trade data is accurate and I got a good enough= price,<br> > and I know who I'm dealing with.<br> ><br> > I know someone smarter than me and with more money, market leverage, a= nd<br> > political connections **WILL** game the system and distort the market = data<br> > history so they can take more money from buyers and sellers without ac= tually<br> > doing some usefull market function.<br> ><br> > As long as use buyers and sellers can see the code, and have a good ey= e for<br> > knowing when someone's pushing the market around, we can just put = our orders<br> > in and relieve some speculators of their money.<br> ><br> > Just get me working code for cross-chain trades, and we'll work on= the<br> > accurate historic data problem later.<br> ><br> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------= ------<br> > Troy Benjegerdes =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 'da hozer' =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:hozer@hozed.org">hozer@hozed.org</a><br> > 7 elements =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0earth::water::air::fire::mind::spirit::= soul =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"http://grid.coop" target=3D"_bla= nk">grid.coop</a><br> ><br> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Never pick a fight with someone who buys ink by t= he barrel,<br> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0nor try buy a hacker who makes money= by the megahash<br> ><br> ><br> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------= --------<br> > Flow-based real-time traffic analytics software. Cisco certified tool.= <br> > Monitor traffic, SLAs, QoS, Medianet, WAAS etc. with NetFlow Analyzer<= br> > Customize your own dashboards, set traffic alerts and generate reports= .<br> > Network behavioral analysis & security monitoring. All-in-one tool= .<br> > <a href=3D"http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=3D126839071&a= mp;iu=3D/4140/ostg.clktrk" target=3D"_blank">http://pubads.g.doubleclick.ne= t/gampad/clk?id=3D126839071&iu=3D/4140/ostg.clktrk</a><br> > _______________________________________________<br> > Bitcoin-development mailing list<br> > <a href=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net">Bitcoin-d= evelopment@lists.sourceforge.net</a><br> > <a href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-develo= pment" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitco= in-development</a><br> <br> <br> <br> --<br> Jeff Garzik<br> Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist<br> BitPay, Inc. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://bitpay.com/" target=3D"= _blank">https://bitpay.com/</a><br> <br> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---<br> Flow-based real-time traffic analytics software. Cisco certified tool.<br> Monitor traffic, SLAs, QoS, Medianet, WAAS etc. with NetFlow Analyzer<br> Customize your own dashboards, set traffic alerts and generate reports.<br> Network behavioral analysis & security monitoring. All-in-one tool.<br> <a href=3D"http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=3D126839071&iu= =3D/4140/ostg.clktrk" target=3D"_blank">http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gam= pad/clk?id=3D126839071&iu=3D/4140/ostg.clktrk</a><br> _______________________________________________<br> Bitcoin-development mailing list<br> <a href=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net">Bitcoin-develo= pment@lists.sourceforge.net</a><br> <a href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development= " target=3D"_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-de= velopment</a><br> </blockquote></div> --001a11c1640e2863b604f38fb8ce--