Feedback-ID: i525146e8:Fastmail
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2023 07:26:24 +0000
From: Peter Todd <pete@petertodd.org>
To: Antoine Riard <antoine.riard@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ZUXyICh45JP6OnDu@petertodd.org>
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Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>,
 security@ariard.me, "lightning-dev\\\\@lists.linuxfoundation.org"
 <lightning-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] OP_Expire and Coinbase-Like Behavior: Making
 HTLCs Safer by Letting Transactions Expire Safely
Precedence: list


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On Fri, Nov 03, 2023 at 05:25:24AM +0000, Antoine Riard wrote:
> > To be clear, are you talking about anchor channels or non-anchor channe=
ls?
> > Because in anchor channels, all outputs other than the anchor outputs
> provided
> > for fee bumping can't be spent until the commitment transaction is mine=
d,
> which
> > means RBF/CPFP isn't relevant.
>=20
> I think the distinction is irrelevant here as pre-anchor channel if I have
> one spendable HTLC output spend and I gain knowledge of my counterparty
> commitment transaction from networks mempools, the spend is malleable and
> can be used as a CPFP. If you assume anchor channels, you have 2 anchor
> outputs as long both parties have balance outputs or pending HTLCs.
>=20
> Though pre-anchor, legacy channels the counterparty commitment transaction
> will have to be attached with a fee under min mempool fee for the
> replacement cycling to happen, and let network congestion happen.

I think you are misunderstanding a key point to my OP_Expire proposal: beca=
use
the ability to spend the preimage branch of the HTLC goes away when the ref=
und
branch becomes available, replacing cycling or any similar technique becomes
entirely irrelevant.

The situation where Carol prevents Bob from learning about the preimage in =
time
simply can't happen: either Carol collects the HTLC with knowledge of the
preimage, by spending it in a transaction mined prior to the expiration time
and ensuring that Bob learns the preimage from the blockchain itself. Or the
HTLC expires and Bob can use the refund branch at his leisure.

> I think the more interesting case is a future world with package relay
> deployed at the p2p level and anchor output on the lightning-side. Here t=
he
> most advanced replacement as illustrated in the test can happen (where
> commitment has an anchor output - see L125).

Again, with OP_Expire, whether or not package relay or anything similar exi=
sts
is irrelevant. Replacement cycling is totally useless because there is a
defined time window in which the HTLC can be spent with the preimage, after
which only the refund branch can be used.

Indeed, with OP_Expire Lightning nodes will no longer need to monitor mempo=
ols
for preimages at all. If the preimage is used, it is guaranteed to end up in
the chain, and the Lightning node is guaranteed to see it provided they have
access to up-to-date blockchain data.

--=20
https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org

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