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([2a01:cb1d:5c:1600:9d6d:71b2:cb71:cb17]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id m70sm10490715wma.36.2018.01.08.08.02.00 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 08 Jan 2018 08:02:01 -0800 (PST) To: Greg Sanders , Bitcoin Protocol Discussion , Matias Alejo Garcia References: <57f5fcd8644c6f6472cd6a91144a6152@nym.zone> From: Aymeric Vitte Message-ID: Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2018 17:02:02 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------8A44DB2DCD16BA50C40B2789" Content-Language: fr X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.7 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_FROM,FREEMAIL_REPLY,HTML_MESSAGE, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE,URIBL_BLACK autolearn=no version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP 39: Add language identifier strings for wordlists X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2018 16:02:05 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------8A44DB2DCD16BA50C40B2789 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit That's the point indeed and the scope is wider than XYZIP-39, even if what I mean is the very contrary of your point (really bitcoin is reserved to an elite understanding english/ascii letters?) This proposal is tailor made for Trezor and does not simplify anything for people, that's the contrary again As I suggested in another response to this thread (which was moderated due probably to some uninteresting parts of the discussion) it's time to take a break and really make a survey worldwide of what people need, what they understand and what they need to secure their coins, nobody has any feedback about this (and maybe does not even care) Wallets created a big mess implementing non standard things (or things they thought standard but that are not), or things not intended for the final use, or things that people can't understand, it's time to correct this, unless wallets want to keep people tied forever to them (when I read Trezor or other wallets docs, it's quite misleading, "sending coins to your wallet", what does it mean? Nothing, and people think it means something, this should stop now) And again, I don't see the point of wordlist (in addition in a language that they don't understand) compared to backing up a 32B hex string (that you can encrypt different ways at different places), assuming that the hex format can be made available in all languages "yet I would not advise users to use a wordlist that might not have support across multiple wallet implementations, resulting in lock-in or worse"--> this single sentence shows how the whole model is wrong and how you think that you can lock people Le 08/01/2018 à 15:54, Greg Sanders via bitcoin-dev a écrit : > Let me re-phrase: Is it a known thing for users to actually use it? > > On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 9:52 AM, Matias Alejo Garcia > wrote: > > > > On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 11:34 AM, Greg Sanders via bitcoin-dev > > wrote: > > Has anyone actually used the multilingual support in bip39? > > > > Copay (and all its clones) use it.  > > > >   > > > If a feature of the standard has not been(widely?) used in > years, and isn't supported in any major wallet(?), it seems > indicative it was a mistake to add it in the first place, > since it's a footgun in the making for some poor sap who can't > even read English letters when almost all documentation is > written in English. > > On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 6:13 AM, nullius via bitcoin-dev > > wrote: > > On 2018-01-08 at 07:35:52 +0000, 木ノ下じょな > > > wrote: > > This is very sad. > > The number one problem in Japan with BIP39 seeds is > with English words. > > I have seen a 60 year old Japanese man writing down > his phrase (because he kept on failing recovery), and > watched him write down "aneter" for "amateur"... > > [...] > > If you understand English and can spell, you read a > word, your brain processes the word, and you can spell > it on your own when writing down.  Not many Japanese > people can do that, so they need to copy letter for > letter, taking a long time, and still messing up on > occasion. > > [...] > > Defining "everyone should only use English, because > ASCII is easier to plan for" is not a good way to move > forward as a currency. > > > Well said.  Thank you for telling of these experiences.  > Now please, let’s put the shoe on the other foot. > > I ask everybody who wants an English-only mnemonic > standard to entrust *their own money* to their abilities > to very, very carefully write this down—then later, type > it back in: > > すさん　たんろ　りゆう　しもん　ていおん　しとう > とこや　はやい　おうさま　ほくろ　けちゃっふ　たもつ > > (Approximate translation:  “Whatever would you do if > Bitcoin had been invented by somebody named Satoshi > Nakamoto?”) > > No, wait:  That is only a 12-word mnemonic.  We are > probably talking about a Trezor; so now, hey you there, > stake the backup of your life’s savings on your ability to > handwrite *this*: > > にあう　しひょう　にんすう　ひえる　かいこう　いのる　ねんし　はあさん　ひこく > とうく　きもためし　そなた　こなこな　にさんかたんそ　ろんき　めいあん　みわく > へこむ　すひょう　おやゆひ　ふせく　けさき　めいきょく　こんまけ > > Ready to bet your money on *that* as a backup phrase in > your own hands?  No?  Then please, stop demanding that > others risk *their* money on the inverse case. > > ---- > > If you cheat here by having studied Japanese, then > remember that many Japanese people know English and other > European languages, too.  Then think of how much money > would be lost by your non-Japanese-literate family and > friends—if BIP 39 had only Japanese wordlists, and your > folks needed to wrestle with the above phrases as their > “mnemonics”. > > In such cases, the phrases cannot be called “mnemonics” at > all.  A “mnemonic” implies aid to memory.  Gibberish in a > wholly alien writing system is much worse even than > transcribing pseudorandom hex strings.  The Japanese man > in the quoted story, who wrote “aneter” for “amateur”, was > not dealing with a *mnemonic*:  He was using the world’s > most inefficient means of making cryptic bitstrings *less* > userfriendly. > > ---- > > I began this thread with a quite simple request:  Is “日本語” > an appropriate string for identifying the Japanese > language to Japanese users?  And what of the other strings > I posted for other languages? > > I asked this as an implementer working on my own instance > of the greatest guard against vendor lock-in and stale > software:  Independent implementations.  —  I asked, > because obviously, I myself do not speak all these > different languages; and I want to implement them all.  *All.* > > Some replies have been interesting in their own right; but > thus far, nobody has squarely addressed the substance of > my question. > > Most worrisome is that much of the discussion has veered > into criticism of multi-language support.  I opened with a > question about other languages, and I am getting replies > which raise a hue and cry of “English only!” > > Though I am fluent and literate in English, I am > uninterested in ever implementing any standard of this > nature which is artificially restricted to English.  I am > fortunate; for as of this moment, we have a standard > called “BIP 39” which has seven non-English wordlists, and > four more pending in open pull requests (#432, #442, #493, > #621). > > I request discussion of language identification strings > appropriate for use with that standard. > > (P.S., I hope that my system did not mangle anything in > the foregoing.  I have seen weird copypaste behaviour mess > up decomposed characters.  I thought of this after I > searched for and collected some visually fascinating > phrases; so I tried to normalize these to NFC...  It > should go without saying, easyseed output the Japanese > perfectly!) > > > -- > nullius@nym.zone | PGP ECC: > 0xC2E91CD74A4C57A105F6C21B5A00591B2F307E0C > Bitcoin: bc1qcash96s5jqppzsp8hy8swkggf7f6agex98an7h | > (Segwit nested: > 3NULL3ZCUXr7RDLxXeLPDMZDZYxuaYkCnG)  (PGP RSA: > 0x36EBB4AB699A10EE) > “‘If you’re not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to > hide.’ > No!  Because I do nothing wrong, I have nothing to show.” > — nullius > > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > > > > > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > > > > > > -- > Matías Alejo Garcia > @ematiu > Roads? Where we're going, we don't need roads! > > > > > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev -- Bitcoin transactions made simple: https://github.com/Ayms/bitcoin-transactions Zcash wallets made simple: https://github.com/Ayms/zcash-wallets Bitcoin wallets made simple: https://github.com/Ayms/bitcoin-wallets Get the torrent dynamic blocklist: http://peersm.com/getblocklist Check the 10 M passwords list: http://peersm.com/findmyass Anti-spies and private torrents, dynamic blocklist: http://torrent-live.org Peersm : http://www.peersm.com torrent-live: https://github.com/Ayms/torrent-live node-Tor : https://www.github.com/Ayms/node-Tor GitHub : https://www.github.com/Ayms --------------8A44DB2DCD16BA50C40B2789 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

That's the point indeed and the scope is wider than XYZIP-39, even if what I mean is the very contrary of your point (really bitcoin is reserved to an elite understanding english/ascii letters?)

This proposal is tailor made for Trezor and does not simplify anything for people, that's the contrary again

As I suggested in another response to this thread (which was moderated due probably to some uninteresting parts of the discussion) it's time to take a break and really make a survey worldwide of what people need, what they understand and what they need to secure their coins, nobody has any feedback about this (and maybe does not even care)

Wallets created a big mess implementing non standard things (or things they thought standard but that are not), or things not intended for the final use, or things that people can't understand, it's time to correct this, unless wallets want to keep people tied forever to them (when I read Trezor or other wallets docs, it's quite misleading, "sending coins to your wallet", what does it mean? Nothing, and people think it means something, this should stop now)

And again, I don't see the point of wordlist (in addition in a language that they don't understand) compared to backing up a 32B hex string (that you can encrypt different ways at different places), assuming that the hex format can be made available in all languages

"yet I would not advise users to use a wordlist that might not have support across multiple wallet implementations, resulting in lock-in or worse"--> this single sentence shows how the whole model is wrong and how you think that you can lock people

Le 08/01/2018 à 15:54, Greg Sanders via bitcoin-dev a écrit :
Let me re-phrase: Is it a known thing for users to actually use it?

On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 9:52 AM, Matias Alejo Garcia <ematiu@gmail.com> wrote:


On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 11:34 AM, Greg Sanders via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
Has anyone actually used the multilingual support in bip39?
Copay (and all its clones) use it. 



 

If a feature of the standard has not been(widely?) used in years, and isn't supported in any major wallet(?), it seems indicative it was a mistake to add it in the first place, since it's a footgun in the making for some poor sap who can't even read English letters when almost all documentation is written in English.

On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 6:13 AM, nullius via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
On 2018-01-08 at 07:35:52 +0000, 木ノ下じょな <kinoshitajona@gmail.com> wrote:
This is very sad.

The number one problem in Japan with BIP39 seeds is with English words.

I have seen a 60 year old Japanese man writing down his phrase (because he kept on failing recovery), and watched him write down "aneter" for "amateur"...

 [...]

If you understand English and can spell, you read a word, your brain processes the word, and you can spell it on your own when writing down.  Not many Japanese people can do that, so they need to copy letter for letter, taking a long time, and still messing up on occasion.

 [...]

Defining "everyone should only use English, because ASCII is easier to plan for" is not a good way to move forward as a currency.

Well said.  Thank you for telling of these experiences.  Now please, let’s put the shoe on the other foot.

I ask everybody who wants an English-only mnemonic standard to entrust *their own money* to their abilities to very, very carefully write this down—then later, type it back in:

すさん　たんろ　りゆう　しもん　ていおん　しとう
とこや　はやい　おうさま　ほくろ　けちゃっふ　たもつ

(Approximate translation:  “Whatever would you do if Bitcoin had been invented by somebody named Satoshi Nakamoto?”)

No, wait:  That is only a 12-word mnemonic.  We are probably talking about a Trezor; so now, hey you there, stake the backup of your life’s savings on your ability to handwrite *this*:

にあう　しひょう　にんすう　ひえる　かいこう　いのる　ねんし　はあさん　ひこく
とうく　きもためし　そなた　こなこな　にさんかたんそ　ろんき　めいあん　みわく
へこむ　すひょう　おやゆひ　ふせく　けさき　めいきょく　こんまけ

Ready to bet your money on *that* as a backup phrase in your own hands?  No?  Then please, stop demanding that others risk *their* money on the inverse case.

----

If you cheat here by having studied Japanese, then remember that many Japanese people know English and other European languages, too.  Then think of how much money would be lost by your non-Japanese-literate family and friends—if BIP 39 had only Japanese wordlists, and your folks needed to wrestle with the above phrases as their “mnemonics”.

In such cases, the phrases cannot be called “mnemonics” at all.  A “mnemonic” implies aid to memory.  Gibberish in a wholly alien writing system is much worse even than transcribing pseudorandom hex strings.  The Japanese man in the quoted story, who wrote “aneter” for “amateur”, was not dealing with a *mnemonic*:  He was using the world’s most inefficient means of making cryptic bitstrings *less* userfriendly.

----

I began this thread with a quite simple request:  Is “日本語” an appropriate string for identifying the Japanese language to Japanese users?  And what of the other strings I posted for other languages?

I asked this as an implementer working on my own instance of the greatest guard against vendor lock-in and stale software:  Independent implementations.  —  I asked, because obviously, I myself do not speak all these different languages; and I want to implement them all.  *All.*

Some replies have been interesting in their own right; but thus far, nobody has squarely addressed the substance of my question.

Most worrisome is that much of the discussion has veered into criticism of multi-language support.  I opened with a question about other languages, and I am getting replies which raise a hue and cry of “English only!”

Though I am fluent and literate in English, I am uninterested in ever implementing any standard of this nature which is artificially restricted to English.  I am fortunate; for as of this moment, we have a standard called “BIP 39” which has seven non-English wordlists, and four more pending in open pull requests (#432, #442, #493, #621).

I request discussion of language identification strings appropriate for use with that standard.

(P.S., I hope that my system did not mangle anything in the foregoing.  I have seen weird copypaste behaviour mess up decomposed characters.  I thought of this after I searched for and collected some visually fascinating phrases; so I tried to normalize these to NFC...  It should go without saying, easyseed output the Japanese perfectly!)


--
nullius@nym.zone | PGP ECC: 0xC2E91CD74A4C57A105F6C21B5A00591B2F307E0C
Bitcoin: bc1qcash96s5jqppzsp8hy8swkggf7f6agex98an7h | (Segwit nested:
3NULL3ZCUXr7RDLxXeLPDMZDZYxuaYkCnG)  (PGP RSA: 0x36EBB4AB699A10EE)
“‘If you’re not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to hide.’
No!  Because I do nothing wrong, I have nothing to show.” — nullius

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--
Matías Alejo Garcia
@ematiu
Roads? Where we're going, we don't need roads!



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