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To: Michael Folkson <michaelfolkson@gmail.com>
From: "'Ava Chow' via Bitcoin Development Mailing List" <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
Cc: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Re: Adding New BIP Editors
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On 04/20/2024 06:21 PM, Michael Folkson wrote:
> It is inevitable there will be a "revert war" unless they all have to
> agree on merge decisions or communicate prior to merging. It is just a
> matter of time. Does for example Ordinal Numbers get a BIP number? I
> suspect all the new BIP editors won't agree on that.

Why do you think that a revert war is inevitable?

The Bitcoin Core repo operates in a similar way - the maintainers are=20
independent and work autonomously. The maintainers do not have to agree=20
on merge decisions nor do they communicate prior to merging. If there's=20
disagreement about a merge decision, we talk to each other about it like=20
adults and come to a mutually agreeable resolution. I don't think=20
there's ever been a revert war in the history of Bitcoin.

I would expect that when there is something that is likely to be=20
controversial or is ambiguous that it should be a BIP that they would=20
then talk to each other about it. It doesn't have to be all or nothing -=20
they can do most work without communicating, but when there's questions=20
or ambiguity, then they communicate.

> Who is to blame in a "revert war" if each editor is free to merge
> whatever pull request they like? The editor who merged it? Why should
> they be removed as an editor for merging a pull request when they find
> out later a different editor disagreed with that merge decision and
> wants to revert the merge?

A revert war would be someone merging a PR that reverts another, then=20
someone else (opening then) merging a PR that reverts that, and it goes=20
back and forth. It would not be limited to PRs only. This would likely=20
be super obvious too that they are controversially merging things as I=20
would be surprised if other BIP editors didn't comment on any of those=20
actions, besides the fact that many people do also watch the BIPs repo.=20
Regardless, the blame is on those who are doing the reverting, and would=20
be both sides.

> I'm even more concerned about future soft fork activation attempts.
> These don't necessarily need to be attempted via a Bitcoin Core merged
> pull request hence the BIPs repo could be a key source of information
> and guidance on this.

This concern doesn't make any sense. There are already multiple soft and=20
hard fork BIPs that are not active nor good ideas. A BIP does not need=20
to be a good idea.

> I've seen Wladimir is contributing again to Core. Is there a plan to
> give him commit access again?

It would have to be through the typical maintainer process, although I=20
doubt that he even wants it. But that's completely orthogonal to the=20
BIPs repo discussion.

> I'd be more comfortable with him
> overseeing things in the various repos under the Bitcoin Core
> (/bitcoin) GitHub org as it sounds like you don't really care if the
> BIPs repo degenerates into a free for all.

I don't understand why you assume that.

I've said this before, but if I see a revert war going on in the BIPs=20
repo, I will remove those involved immediately and make a thread on the=20
list to discuss what to do about them. But I doubt that's a scenario=20
that will actually come to pass.

Ava

>=20
> Thanks
> Michael
>=20
> On Sat, Apr 20, 2024 at 10:15=E2=80=AFPM 'Ava Chow' via Bitcoin Developme=
nt
> Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>
>> On 04/20/2024 04:46 PM, Steve Lee wrote:
>>> Wasn't there evidence provided that Kanzure does not want this
>>> responsibility without being paid?
>>
>> I am not aware of that, and it hasn't come up when I've talked to him
>> about being a BIPs editor.
>>
>>> I'm confused by this process that we don't even ask the people if they
>>> want the responsibility? I think only Laolu has chimed in to commit to =
it?
>>
>> Personally, I've spoken to all 5 privately and they've all confirmed to
>> me that they are willing to be BIPs editors. Jonatack[1] and Murch[2]
>> have also replied to this thread about this.
>>
>> Ava
>>
>> [1]:
>> https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/83b69000-ca1e-4a58-90b5-114cb09ac0bbn@g=
ooglegroups.com/
>> [2]:
>> https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/53a0015c-b76a-441a-920b-32bd88d5e778@mu=
rch.one/
>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Apr 20, 2024 at 12:30=E2=80=AFPM 'Ava Chow' via Bitcoin Develop=
ment
>>> Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com
>>> <mailto:bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>      Since we're now past the deadline of April 19th, I'd like to infor=
m
>>>      everyone of what will happen on Monday.
>>>
>>>      There has not been any actual objections to the nominees nor have =
there
>>>      been any suggestions on choosing a subset of them since my last em=
ail.
>>>      As such, there is rough consensus on adding Kanzure, Murch, Jonata=
ck,
>>>      Ruben, and Roasbeef as BIP editors, and they will be added on Mond=
ay
>>>      April 22nd.
>>>
>>>      Ava
>>>
>>>      On 04/16/2024 01:08 PM, 'Ava Chow' via Bitcoin Development Mailing=
 List
>>>      wrote:
>>>       > While I don't disagree that 5 or 6 people seems like a lot to a=
dd at
>>>       > once, it's not clear to me how we should decide which subset of=
 the
>>>       > nominees should be added. As it is now, I have only seen an act=
ual
>>>       > objection to Kanzure and Ruben from /dev/fd0, and no explicit
>>>      objections
>>>       > to anyone else. It seems like the vast majority of people don't=
 share
>>>       > their concerns either as both Kanzure and Ruben continue to be
>>>      endorsed
>>>       > by many others.
>>>       >
>>>       > Looking at the endorsements each candidate has received, the cu=
rrent
>>>       > counts are:
>>>       > * Kanzure - 17 for, 1 against
>>>       > * Murch - 13 for
>>>       > * Jonatack - 13 for
>>>       > * Ruben - 12 for, 1 against
>>>       > * Roasbeef - 9 for
>>>       > * Michael Folkson - none
>>>       >
>>>       > However, I don't want this process to become a popularity conte=
st and
>>>       > require some kind of formal voting. Rather I'd prefer that this
>>>      process
>>>       > be something more like how Bitcoin Core maintainers are added -=
 by
>>>       > achieving rough consensus. Without any explicit objections to a=
ny of
>>>       > these candidates, I'm inclined to move forward with adding the =
5 who
>>>       > have received endorsements. Having to pick "winners" from this =
list
>>>       > seems like a quick way to stir up drama that I don't think anyo=
ne
>>>      really
>>>       > wants to deal with.
>>>       >
>>>       > I do want to note that neither Kanzure, Ruben, nor Roasbeef hav=
e
>>>      posted
>>>       > on this list that they are willing to be BIP editors. I have
>>>      reached out
>>>       > to all 3 of them privately, and received responses from Kanzure=
 and
>>>       > Ruben that indicate that they probably are willing, but public
>>>       > confirmation from them on this list would also be nice. I have =
not
>>>       > received a response from Roasbeef.
>>>       >
>>>       > Ava
>>>       >
>>>       > On 04/11/2024 10:22 AM, Sergi Delgado Segura wrote:
>>>       >>   > I would prefer having more (9+?) than less folks on this
>>>      task, so
>>>       >> personal preferences are easily ignored and overwritten by the=
 group
>>>       >> majority.
>>>       >>
>>>       >> I disagree with that, the more doesn't really the better here.
>>>      Having
>>>       >> too many editors may result in a tragedy of the commons, in
>>>      which people
>>>       >> just commit to the job because many others do, and they do not
>>>      end up
>>>       >> doing as much because they expect others to do the it. This do=
es not
>>>       >> only make the process look bad but may burnout the ones that e=
nd up
>>>       >> doing the job, given their time commitment ends up being too f=
ar
>>>      from
>>>       >> their expectations.
>>>       >>
>>>       >> I think being more moderate with the amount of people is bette=
r, and
>>>       >> gives us leeway in case the workload ends up being excessive a=
nd
>>>      we need
>>>       >> to add more people (plus discourage people from joining and
>>>      slacking off).
>>>       >>
>>>       >> I think 3 more people should be a good number to start from.
>>>       >> I'd personally vouch for Murch, Kanzure, and Ruben based on
>>>      their track
>>>       >> record in the space
>>>       >>
>>>       >> On Tue, Apr 2, 2024 at 4:30=E2=80=AFPM nvk <rdlfnvk@gmail.com
>>>      <mailto:rdlfnvk@gmail.com>
>>>       >> <mailto:rdlfnvk@gmail.com <mailto:rdlfnvk@gmail.com>>> wrote:
>>>       >>
>>>       >> +1 for
>>>       >> Kanzure
>>>       >> RubenSomsen
>>>       >> Seccour
>>>       >> Jon Atack
>>>       >> Roasbeef
>>>       >>
>>>       >> I would prefer having more (9+?) than less folks on this task,=
 so
>>>       >> personal preferences are easily ignored and overwritten by the=
 group
>>>       >> majority.
>>>       >>
>>>       >> BIPs were intended as a means to collect ideas, not enforce id=
eas.
>>>       >>
>>>       >> I'd like to return to that.
>>>       >>
>>>       >> - NVK (temp gmail account)
>>>       >>
>>>       >>      On Monday, April 1, 2024 at 5:16:54=E2=80=AFPM UTC-4 Davi=
d A.
>>>      Harding wrote:
>>>       >>
>>>       >>          On 2024-03-28 10:04, Matt Corallo wrote:
>>>       >>           > Please provide justification rather than simply
>>>      saying "I
>>>       >>          like Bob!".
>>>       >>
>>>       >>          Using only comments from the mailing list, the
>>>      following appears
>>>       >>          to be
>>>       >>          the candidate list along with the current support.
>>>      Asterisks denote
>>>       >>          candidates who indicated their willingness to accept
>>>      the role.
>>>       >>
>>>       >>          - Bryan "Kanzure" Bishop, recommended by Ava Chow[1],=
 Chris
>>>       >>          Stewart[3],
>>>       >>          Michael Folkson[6], Peter Todd[9], Matt Corallo[10],
>>>      Brandon
>>>       >>          Black[11],
>>>       >>          Antoine Riard[12], Murch[13], Antoine Poinsot[15], Jo=
hn
>>>       >>          Carvalho[16]
>>>       >>
>>>       >>          - Ruben Somsen, recommended by Ava Chow[1], Chris
>>>      Stewart[3],
>>>       >>          Michael
>>>       >>          Folkson[6], Antoine Riard[12], Murch[13], Antoine
>>>      Poinsot[15], John
>>>       >>          Carvalho[16]
>>>       >>
>>>       >>          - Jon Atack*, recommended by Luke Dashjr[2], Chris
>>>      Stewart[3],
>>>       >>          /dev/fd0[5][7],
>>>       >>          Brandon Black[11], Antoine Riard[12], Ava Chow[14], J=
ohn
>>>       >>          Carvalho[16]
>>>       >>
>>>       >>          - Olaoluwa "Roasbeef" Osuntokun, recommended by Chris
>>>       >>          Stewart[3], John
>>>       >>          C. Vernaleo[4], /dev/fd0[5][7], Keagan McClelland[8],
>>>      Antoine
>>>       >>          Riard[12], Ava Chow[14]
>>>       >>
>>>       >>          - Mark "Murch" Erhardt*, recommended by Michael
>>>      Folkson[6], Keagan
>>>       >>          McClelland[8], Matt Corallo[10], Brandon Black[11], A=
ntoine
>>>       >>          Riard[12],
>>>       >>          Ava Chow[14]
>>>       >>
>>>       >>          - Michael Folkson*
>>>       >>
>>>       >>          Note: Luke Dashjr proposed[17] Seccour and Greg Tonos=
ki for
>>>       >>          "non-dev
>>>       >>          triaging", Tonoski proposed himself[18] for "BIP
>>>      editor", and
>>>       >>          Antoine
>>>       >>          Riard[12] proposed Seccour for "decentralized PM".
>>>       >>
>>>       >>          I searched the BIPs repo by commenter to see if any o=
f
>>>      the above
>>>       >>          candidates had been especially active there, which is
>>>      listed
>>>       >>          below as:
>>>       >>          total PRs they commented on (number still open/number
>>>      closed).
>>>       >>
>>>       >>          - 21 (1/20) commenter:kanzure
>>>       >>          - 3 (2/1) commenter:rubensomsen
>>>       >>          - 15 (0/15) commenter:jonatack
>>>       >>          - 18 (2/16) commenter:roasbeef
>>>       >>          - 10 (6/4) commenter:Murchandamus
>>>       >>          - 57 (6/51) commenter:michaelfolkson
>>>       >>
>>>       >>          I'll also note that Osuntokun is the only member of t=
he
>>>      set to
>>>       >>          have a
>>>       >>          merged BIP that they co-authored, although I believe
>>>      there are
>>>       >>          far-along
>>>       >>          draft BIPs for both Murch (terminology) and Somsen (S=
ilent
>>>       >>          Payments). I
>>>       >>          don't think this should be a requirement, but I do th=
ink it
>>>       >>          demonstrates
>>>       >>          familiarity with the process.
>>>       >>
>>>       >>          Speaking only for myself, I think all of the candidat=
es
>>>      above with
>>>       >>          multiple recommendations from other community
>>>      participants are
>>>       >>          fully
>>>       >>          qualified for the role, so I'll only provide a detail=
ed
>>>       >>          justification
>>>       >>          for the person who would be my first pick: Murch is n=
ot
>>>      only a
>>>       >>          longstanding and broadly liked Bitcoin contributor, b=
ut
>>>      (as Corallo
>>>       >>          mentioned) he has worked on standardizing terminology
>>>      through a
>>>       >>          draft
>>>       >>          BIP. In addition, he provided an extremely detailed
>>>      review of
>>>       >>          all 300
>>>       >>          pages of a draft of Mastering Bitcoin (3rd edition) a=
nd has
>>>       >>          reviewed
>>>       >>          drafts of over 200 weekly Optech newsletters, in both=
 cases
>>>       >>          significantly improving the accuracy and
>>>      comprehensibility of the
>>>       >>          documentation. To me, that seems very similar to the
>>>      work we'd
>>>       >>          ask him
>>>       >>          to perform as a BIPs editor and it's something that
>>>      he's already
>>>       >>          doing,
>>>       >>          so I think there's an excellent fit of person to role=
.
>>>       >>
>>>       >>          -Dave
>>>       >>
>>>       >>          [1]
>>>       >>
>>>      https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/2092f7ff-4860-47f8...@achow101.co=
m/
>>>      <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/2092f7ff-4860-47f8...@achow101.c=
om/> <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/2092f7ff-4860-47f8-ba1a-c9d97927551e=
@achow101.com/ <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/2092f7ff-4860-47f8-ba1a-c9=
d97927551e@achow101.com/>>
>>>       >>          [2]
>>>       >>
>>>      https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/9288df7b-f2e9-4106...@dashjr.org/
>>>      <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/9288df7b-f2e9-4106...@dashjr.org=
/>
>>>      <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/9288df7b-f2e9-4106-b843-c1ff8f8a=
62a3@dashjr.org/ <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/9288df7b-f2e9-4106-b843-=
c1ff8f8a62a3@dashjr.org/>>
>>>       >>          [3]
>>>       >>
>>>      https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/d1e7183c-30e6-4f1a...@googlegroup=
s.com/ <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/d1e7183c-30e6-4f1a...@googlegroups=
.com/> <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/d1e7183c-30e6-4f1a-8fd6-cddc46f129=
a2n@googlegroups.com/ <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/d1e7183c-30e6-4f1a-=
8fd6-cddc46f129a2n@googlegroups.com/>>
>>>       >>          [4]
>>>       >>
>>>      https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/84309c3f-e848-d333...@netpurgator=
y.com/ <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/84309c3f-e848-d333...@netpurgatory=
.com/> <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/84309c3f-e848-d333-fd28-bdd55899b7=
13@netpurgatory.com/ <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/84309c3f-e848-d333-f=
d28-bdd55899b713@netpurgatory.com/>>
>>>       >>          [5]
>>>       >>
>>>      https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/4c1462b7-ea1c-4a36...@googlegroup=
s.com/ <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/4c1462b7-ea1c-4a36...@googlegroups=
.com/> <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/4c1462b7-ea1c-4a36-be81-7c3719157f=
abn@googlegroups.com/ <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/4c1462b7-ea1c-4a36-=
be81-7c3719157fabn@googlegroups.com/>>
>>>       >>          [6]
>>>       >>
>>>      https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/a116fba3-5948-48d2...@googlegroup=
s.com/ <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/a116fba3-5948-48d2...@googlegroups=
.com/> <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/a116fba3-5948-48d2-a787-639a3564d0=
06n@googlegroups.com/ <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/a116fba3-5948-48d2-=
a787-639a3564d006n@googlegroups.com/>>
>>>       >>          [7]
>>>       >>
>>>      https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/846b668f-8386-4869...@googlegroup=
s.com/ <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/846b668f-8386-4869...@googlegroups=
.com/> <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/846b668f-8386-4869-a3b1-55d346efbe=
a1n@googlegroups.com/ <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/846b668f-8386-4869-=
a3b1-55d346efbea1n@googlegroups.com/>>
>>>       >>          [8]
>>>       >>
>>>      https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/CALeFGL1-LKPWd7YRS110ut8tX=3Dwruq=
gLEazRA5...@mail.gmail.com/ <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/CALeFGL1-LKPW=
d7YRS110ut8tX=3DwruqgLEazRA5...@mail.gmail.com/> <https://gnusha.org/pi/bit=
coindev/CALeFGL1-LKPWd7YRS110ut8tX=3DwruqgLEazRA5nVw9siYCPj4A@mail.gmail.co=
m/ <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/CALeFGL1-LKPWd7YRS110ut8tX=3DwruqgLEaz=
RA5nVw9siYCPj4A@mail.gmail.com/>>
>>>       >>          [9]
>>>      https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/ZgePPvbf...@petertodd.org/
>>>      <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/ZgePPvbf...@petertodd.org/>
>>>       >>
>>>      <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/ZgePPvbfrr4wZG7k@petertodd.org/
>>>      <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/ZgePPvbfrr4wZG7k@petertodd.org/>=
>
>>>       >>          [10]
>>>       >>
>>>      https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/f9435999-42df-46b5...@mattcorallo=
.com/ <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/f9435999-42df-46b5...@mattcorallo.c=
om/> <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/f9435999-42df-46b5-86e2-7ba0336a9bf2=
@mattcorallo.com/ <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/f9435999-42df-46b5-86e2=
-7ba0336a9bf2@mattcorallo.com/>>
>>>       >>          [11]
>>>      https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/ZgWRu32FXzqqg69V@console/
>>>      <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/ZgWRu32FXzqqg69V@console/>
>>>       >>
>>>      <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/ZgWRu32FXzqqg69V@console/
>>>      <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/ZgWRu32FXzqqg69V@console/>>
>>>       >>          [12]
>>>       >>
>>>      https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/CALZpt+E8DohYEJ9aO+FiF6+E...@mail=
.gmail.com/ <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/CALZpt+E8DohYEJ9aO+FiF6+E...@=
mail.gmail.com/> <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/CALZpt+E8DohYEJ9aO+FiF6+=
EKMCP5oEbHSKSXpq0VKVBhJLhrw@mail.gmail.com/ <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoind=
ev/CALZpt+E8DohYEJ9aO+FiF6+EKMCP5oEbHSKSXpq0VKVBhJLhrw@mail.gmail.com/>>
>>>       >>          [13]
>>>       >>
>>>      https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/53a0015c-b76a-441a...@murch.one/
>>>      <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/53a0015c-b76a-441a...@murch.one/=
>
>>>      <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/53a0015c-b76a-441a-920b-32bd88d5=
e778@murch.one/ <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/53a0015c-b76a-441a-920b-3=
2bd88d5e778@murch.one/>>
>>>       >>          [14]
>>>       >>
>>>      https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/ae482890-bce3-468f...@achow101.co=
m/
>>>      <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/ae482890-bce3-468f...@achow101.c=
om/> <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/ae482890-bce3-468f-866d-c555b80b0644=
@achow101.com/ <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/ae482890-bce3-468f-866d-c5=
55b80b0644@achow101.com/>>
>>>       >>          [15]
>>>       >>
>>>      https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/ppBS1tfMU3SFX85kmIBVBd0WpT5Wof_oS=
BXsuizh7692AUDw2TojfvCqvcvlmsy9E69qfWMxK-UZWawf8IDApPqF7bXOH4gwU1c2jS4xojo=
=3D@protonmail.com/ <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/ppBS1tfMU3SFX85kmIBVB=
d0WpT5Wof_oSBXsuizh7692AUDw2TojfvCqvcvlmsy9E69qfWMxK-UZWawf8IDApPqF7bXOH4gw=
U1c2jS4xojo=3D@protonmail.com/> <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/ppBS1tfMU=
3SFX85kmIBVBd0WpT5Wof_oSBXsuizh7692AUDw2TojfvCqvcvlmsy9E69qfWMxK-UZWawf8IDA=
pPqF7bXOH4gwU1c2jS4xojo=3D@protonmail.com/ <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoinde=
v/ppBS1tfMU3SFX85kmIBVBd0WpT5Wof_oSBXsuizh7692AUDw2TojfvCqvcvlmsy9E69qfWMxK=
-UZWawf8IDApPqF7bXOH4gwU1c2jS4xojo=3D@protonmail.com/>>
>>>       >>          [16]
>>>       >>
>>>      https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/ad284018-e99c-4552...@googlegroup=
s.com/ <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/ad284018-e99c-4552...@googlegroups=
.com/> <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/ad284018-e99c-4552-88ca-11b9ed3406=
61n@googlegroups.com/ <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/ad284018-e99c-4552-=
88ca-11b9ed340661n@googlegroups.com/>>
>>>       >>          [17]
>>>       >>
>>>      https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/CAMHHROw9mZJRnTbUo76PdqwJU=3D=3DY=
JMvd9Qrst+...@mail.gmail.com/ <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/CAMHHROw9mZ=
JRnTbUo76PdqwJU=3D=3DYJMvd9Qrst+...@mail.gmail.com/> <https://gnusha.org/pi=
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YJMvd9Qrst+nmyypaedYZgg@mail.gmail.com/>>
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>=20
>=20
>=20
> --
> Michael Folkson
> Personal email: michaelfolkson@gmail.com

--=20
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