Message-ID: <557E6798.5030702@AndySchroder.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2015 01:50:16 -0400
From: Andy Schroder <info@AndySchroder.com>
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To: "Warren Togami Jr." <wtogami@gmail.com>, Jeff Garzik <jgarzik@bitpay.com>
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Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Proposal: Move Bitcoin Dev List to a
	Neutral Competent Entity
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Andy Schroder

On 06/14/2015 11:19 PM, Warren Togami Jr. wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 14, 2015 at 5:15 AM, Jeff Garzik <jgarzik@bitpay.com=20
> <mailto:jgarzik@bitpay.com>> wrote:
>
>     * ACK on moving away from SourceForge mailing lists - though only
>     once a community-welcomed replacement is up and running
>
>     * ACK on using LF as a mailing infrastructure provider
>
>     * Research secure mailing list models, for bitcoin-security.  The
>     list is not ultra high security - we all use PGP for that - but it
>     would perhaps be nice to find some spiffy cryptosystem where
>     mailing list participants individually hold keys & therefore access=
=2E
>
>
> While I agree this is a good idea, this should not be a precondition=20
> for moving the public bitcoin-dev list.  The security team needs to=20
> separately research/write tools needed for this.
>
>     <jgarzik> warren, wanna just go ahead and create
>     bitcoin-development @ LF?=20
>
>
> *More Feedback?*  As for going ahead, perhaps we should wait to hear=20
> from more of the other technical leaders?

I'd say just move forward with creating the new list. Once the new list=20
is created, send an announcement encouraging people to join. The new=20
list will be an opt in change, so you can encourage a transition date,=20
but why require it? Maybe monitor the subscriber lists for each list and =

provide people regular updates as to what percentage of the people in=20
the old list have subscribed to the new list. This will help inform=20
people whether the new list will be adopted or not. People may also miss =

a single announcement e-mail. There are too many messages going through=20
the list right now, and everyone doesn't read the list regularly.

>
> *_More Questions_*
>
> *List Name?*  Would people prefer "bitcoin-development" for he new=20
> list name instead of a shorter name like "bitcoin-dev"?  I personally=20
> like the shorter name, but either is fine.=20
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo currently has=20
> "sidechains-dev", and "lightning-dev" is moving there sometime soon.

I vote for "bitcoin-dev", only because of the consistency with the other =

projects that you mentioned, as well as the fact that I think there=20
should be at least some name change to avoid confusion between the new=20
and old lists.


>
> *Proposed Cut-Off Date?*  Then we also need to agree on a date to cut=20
> off the old list..  Their sysadmin said we could have the new list=20
> auto-post from the old list for a short while.  I wonder how well that =

> works ... if that will result in double posting if people write to the =

> new and CC the old list..  Needs a little research how well it would=20
> behave to have both lists operating during a transition period.  I=20
> think we should announce a cut-off date when posts to the old list is=20
> shut off, July 15th, one month from now.  Thoughts?


I'd say move forward with the new list and subscribe it to the old list. =

That way the new list starts archiving the messages from here forward.=20
There may be a little bit of a problem if someone joins the new list but =

not the old list, they may not be able to reply to a message sent to the =

old list? You probably would get a duplicate delivery if doing this, but =

you could encourage users who have joined the new list to turn off=20
delivery on the old list (this is an option in the mailman settings page)=
=2E

Once greater than 50% of the members of the old list are members of the=20
new list, send out an announcement that the old list will be turned into =

read only mode in 3 weeks and to use the new list only after that time.=20
This way you don't have to force use of the new list and a majority=20
agreement is required before doing so and a technical leader is not=20
required to enforce a change without a solid commitment from most of the =

members. Right before the old list is shut down, send one final=20
announcement e-mail indicating it is closing and link to the new list=20
(so that new subscribers will be aware if they are looking at an archive =

of some kind).




>
> *Moderators?*  Mailman on the new server allows having separate logins =

> for admins and moderators.  I think the admins of the old SF project=20
> are gavin, jgarzik and sipa... they are kind of busy.  Perhaps we=20
> should identify known trusted community members who can help with=20
> moderation.  Usually this is dealing with "held" messages that are=20
> flagged by the spam filter
>
> Warren Togami
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development


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    <div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix"><br>
      <pre class=3D"moz-signature" cols=3D"72">Andy Schroder</pre>
      On 06/14/2015 11:19 PM, Warren Togami Jr. wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite=3D"mid:CAEz79PrjoD3fvwqmr2+O+8myeQCV_4ZuX4q9zCkQdN=3Di=3DovuMA@mail.=
gmail.com"
      type=3D"cite">
      <div dir=3D"ltr">
        <div class=3D"gmail_extra">
          <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, Jun 14, 2015 at 5:15 AM, Jef=
f
            Garzik <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a moz-do-not-send=3D"true"
                href=3D"mailto:jgarzik@bitpay.com" target=3D"_blank">jgar=
zik@bitpay.com</a>&gt;</span>
            wrote:<br>
            <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px=

0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-lef=
t-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
              <div dir=3D"ltr">
                <div>* ACK on moving away from SourceForge mailing lists
                  - though only once a community-welcomed replacement is
                  up and running</div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                * ACK on using LF as a mailing infrastructure provider
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div>* Research secure mailing list models, for
                  bitcoin-security.&nbsp; The list is not ultra high secu=
rity
                  - we all use PGP for that - but it would perhaps be
                  nice to find some spiffy cryptosystem where mailing
                  list participants individually hold keys &amp;
                  therefore access.</div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
              </div>
            </blockquote>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>While I agree this is a good idea, this should not be a
              precondition for moving the public bitcoin-dev list.&nbsp; =
The
              security team needs to separately research/write tools
              needed for this.</div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px=

0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-lef=
t-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">&lt;jgarzik&gt;
              warren, wanna just go ahead and create bitcoin-development
              @ LF?&nbsp;</blockquote>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>
              <div><b>More Feedback?</b>&nbsp;&nbsp;As for going ahead, p=
erhaps we
                should wait to hear from more of the other technical
                leaders?</div>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    I'd say just move forward with creating the new list. Once the new
    list is created, send an announcement encouraging people to join.
    The new list will be an opt in change, so you can encourage a
    transition date, but why require it? Maybe monitor the subscriber
    lists for each list and provide people regular updates as to what
    percentage of the people in the old list have subscribed to the new
    list. This will help inform people whether the new list will be
    adopted or not. People may also miss a single announcement e-mail.
    There are too many messages going through the list right now, and
    everyone doesn't read the list regularly.<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote
cite=3D"mid:CAEz79PrjoD3fvwqmr2+O+8myeQCV_4ZuX4q9zCkQdN=3Di=3DovuMA@mail.=
gmail.com"
      type=3D"cite">
      <div dir=3D"ltr">
        <div class=3D"gmail_extra">
          <div class=3D"gmail_quote">
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div><b><u>More Questions</u></b></div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div><b>List Name?</b> &nbsp;Would people prefer
              "bitcoin-development" for he new list name instead of a
              shorter name like "bitcoin-dev"?&nbsp; I personally like th=
e
              shorter name, but either is fine. &nbsp;<a
                moz-do-not-send=3D"true"
                href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinf=
o">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo</a>
              currently has "sidechains-dev", and "lightning-dev" is
              moving there sometime soon.</div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    I vote for "bitcoin-dev", only because of the consistency with the
    other projects that you mentioned, as well as the fact that I think
    there should be at least some name change to avoid confusion between
    the new and old lists.<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <blockquote
cite=3D"mid:CAEz79PrjoD3fvwqmr2+O+8myeQCV_4ZuX4q9zCkQdN=3Di=3DovuMA@mail.=
gmail.com"
      type=3D"cite">
      <div dir=3D"ltr">
        <div class=3D"gmail_extra">
          <div class=3D"gmail_quote">
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div><b>Proposed Cut-Off Date?</b> &nbsp;Then we also need to=

              agree on a date to cut off the old list..&nbsp; Their sysad=
min
              said we could have the new list auto-post from the old
              list for a short while.&nbsp; I wonder how well that works =
=2E..
              if that will result in double posting if people write to
              the new and CC the old list..&nbsp; Needs a little research=
 how
              well it would behave to have both lists operating during a
              transition period.&nbsp; I think we should announce a cut-o=
ff
              date when posts to the old list is shut off, July 15th,
              one month from now.&nbsp; Thoughts?<br>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <br>
    I'd say move forward with the new list and subscribe it to the old
    list. That way the new list starts archiving the messages from here
    forward. There may be a little bit of a problem if someone joins the
    new list but not the old list, they may not be able to reply to a
    message sent to the old list? You probably would get a duplicate
    delivery if doing this, but you could encourage users who have
    joined the new list to turn off delivery on the old list (this is an
    option in the mailman settings page).<br>
    <br>
    Once greater than 50% of the members of the old list are members of
    the new list, send out an announcement that the old list will be
    turned into read only mode in 3 weeks and to use the new list only
    after that time. This way you don't have to force use of the new
    list and a majority agreement is required before doing so and a
    technical leader is not required to enforce a change without a solid
    commitment from most of the members. Right before the old list is
    shut down, send one final announcement e-mail indicating it is
    closing and link to the new list (so that new subscribers will be
    aware if they are looking at an archive of some kind).<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <blockquote
cite=3D"mid:CAEz79PrjoD3fvwqmr2+O+8myeQCV_4ZuX4q9zCkQdN=3Di=3DovuMA@mail.=
gmail.com"
      type=3D"cite">
      <div dir=3D"ltr">
        <div class=3D"gmail_extra">
          <div class=3D"gmail_quote">
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div><b>Moderators?</b> &nbsp;Mailman on the new server allow=
s
              having separate logins for admins and moderators.&nbsp; I t=
hink
              the admins of the old SF project are gavin, jgarzik and
              sipa... they are kind of busy.&nbsp; Perhaps we should iden=
tify
              known trusted community members who can help with
              moderation.&nbsp; Usually this is dealing with "held" messa=
ges
              that are flagged by the spam filter</div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>Warren Togami</div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
      <br>
      <fieldset class=3D"mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap=3D"">----------------------------------------------------=
--------------------------
</pre>
      <br>
      <fieldset class=3D"mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap=3D"">_______________________________________________
Bitcoin-development mailing list
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-development@=
lists.sourceforge.net">Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net</a>
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/=
lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/l=
istinfo/bitcoin-development</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
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