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Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2015 13:23:56 -0500
Message-ID: <CAJfRnm4xNozyynxoTQS25FTCcOw_hwfFfV1V-mVfq+qZ+Q8jVQ@mail.gmail.com>
From: Allen Piscitello <allen.piscitello@gmail.com>
To: Gavin Andresen <gavinandresen@gmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1141d150c387f50520e6ea17
Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Is it possible for there to be two chains after a
 hard fork?
Precedence: list

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>I started this thread as a sanity check on myself, because I keep seeing
smart people saying that two chains could persist for more than a few days
after a hard fork, and I still don't see how that would possibly work.

When you start with the assumption that anyone who disagrees with you is
insane or crazy, I can see why you have such difficulty.


On Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 1:01 PM, Gavin Andresen <gavinandresen@gmail.com>
wrote:

> We really shouldn't have to go over "Bitcoin 101" on this mailing list,
> and this discussion should move to the not-yet-created more general
> discussion list.  I started this thread as a sanity check on myself,
> because I keep seeing smart people saying that two chains could persist for
> more than a few days after a hard fork, and I still don't see how that
> would possibly work.
>
> So: "fraud" would be 51% miners sending you bitcoin in exchange for
> something of value, you wait for confirmations and send them that something
> of value, and then the 51% reverses the transaction.
>
> Running a full node doesn't help.
>
> On Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 1:55 PM, Allen Piscitello <
> allen.piscitello@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> >A dishonest miner majority can commit fraud against you, they can mine
>> only empty blocks, they can do various other things that render your money
>> worthless.
>>
>> Mining empty blocks is not fraud.
>>
>> If you want to use terms like "honest miners" and "fraud", please define
>> them so we can at least be on the same page.
>>
>> I am defining an honest miner as one that follows the rules of the
>> protocol.  Obviously your definition is different.
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 12:51 PM, Mike Hearn <hearn@vinumeris.com> wrote:
>>
>>> >because Bitcoin's basic security assumption is that a supermajority of
>>>> miners are 'honest.'
>>>>
>>>> Only if you rely on SPV.
>>>>
>>>
>>> No, you rely on miners honesty even if you run a full node. This is in
>>> the white paper. A dishonest miner majority can commit fraud against you,
>>> they can mine only empty blocks, they can do various other things that
>>> render your money worthless.
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> --
> Gavin Andresen
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>&gt;<span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">I started this t=
hread as a sanity check on myself, because I keep seeing smart people sayin=
g that two chains could persist for more than a few days after a hard fork,=
 and I still don&#39;t see how that would possibly work.</span></div><div><=
span style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:12.8px">When you start with the assumption that anyone who disagrees wi=
th you is insane or crazy, I can see why you have such difficulty.</span></=
div><div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div></div><div class=
=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 1:0=
1 PM, Gavin Andresen <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gavinandresen@=
gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gavinandresen@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<=
br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left=
:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">We really shouldn&#39;t =
have to go over &quot;Bitcoin 101&quot; on this mailing list, and this disc=
ussion should move to the not-yet-created more general discussion list.=C2=
=A0 I started this thread as a sanity check on myself, because I keep seein=
g smart people saying that two chains could persist for more than a few day=
s after a hard fork, and I still don&#39;t see how that would possibly work=
.<div><br></div><div>So: &quot;fraud&quot; would be 51% miners sending you =
bitcoin in exchange for something of value, you wait for confirmations and =
send them that something of value, and then the 51% reverses the transactio=
n.</div><div><br></div><div>Running a full node doesn&#39;t help.</div><div=
><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div><div class=3D"h5"><br><div class=3D"gmail_=
quote">On Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 1:55 PM, Allen Piscitello <span dir=3D"ltr">=
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:allen.piscitello@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">allen.p=
iscitello@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"=
><div dir=3D"ltr"><span>&gt;<span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">A dishonest mi=
ner majority can commit fraud against you, they can mine only empty blocks,=
 they can do various other things that render your money worthless.</span><=
div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div></span><div><span sty=
le=3D"font-size:12.8px">Mining empty blocks is not fraud.</span></div><div>=
<span style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div><span style=3D"font-=
size:12.8px">If you want to use terms like &quot;honest miners&quot; and &q=
uot;fraud&quot;, please define them so we can at least be on the same page.=
</span></div><div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:12.8px">I am defining an honest miner as one that fo=
llows the rules of the protocol.=C2=A0 Obviously your definition is differe=
nt.</span></div></div><div><div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 12:51 PM, Mike Hearn <span dir=3D"=
ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hearn@vinumeris.com" target=3D"_blank">hearn@vin=
umeris.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><span><block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc=
 solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><span><div><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:12.8px">&gt;</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">because Bitcoin&#39;=
s basic security assumption is that a supermajority of miners are &#39;hone=
st.&#39;</span></div><div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div=
></span><div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">Only if you rely on SPV.</spa=
n></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div>No, you rely on miner=
s honesty even if you run a full node. This is in the white paper. A dishon=
est miner majority can commit fraud against you, they can mine only empty b=
locks, they can do various other things that render your money worthless.</=
div></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div></div><=
/div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">-- <br><div>--<br>Gavin=
 Andresen<br></div>
</font></span></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>

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