Feedback-ID: i4779463d:Fastmail
User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.7.0-alpha0-719-gc39a70fa89-fm-20220629.002-gc39a70fa
Mime-Version: 1.0
Message-Id: <68d39c5e-bd31-44e5-a5dc-e63d496ee780@www.fastmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <CAF90AvmOSa+V7+z16MXyJRCVh_iEceFp_CkbC_4jWixi4W5BbQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <0dc0e945-9e12-43ad-bd12-fcc0e18e4013@www.fastmail.com>
 <CAHUJnBAL-qPoGZ8XZS3jZiPaqMOt4Kg2ioM_jfCF3fDB3-ej9A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAF90AvmOSa+V7+z16MXyJRCVh_iEceFp_CkbC_4jWixi4W5BbQ@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2022 10:58:40 -0700
From: "Anton Shevchenko" <anton@sancoder.com>
To: "Pavol Rusnak" <stick@satoshilabs.com>,
 "Alfred Hodler" <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>,
 "Bram Cohen" <bram@chia.net>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e7ea70b4334d48ae802f8114293322ec
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] No Order Mnemonic
Precedence: list

--e7ea70b4334d48ae802f8114293322ec
Content-Type: text/plain

But this will require user to distinguish 12 words from error correcting words. Which is another hassle.

On Thu, Jul 7, 2022, at 10:52 AM, Pavol Rusnak wrote:
> There is. Just encode the index of permutation used to scramble the otherwise sorted list. For 12 words you need to store 12! = ~32 bits so 3 words should be enough. 
> 
> Repetitions make this more difficult, though. 
> 
> On Thu 7. 7. 2022 at 19:41, Bram Cohen via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>> On Thu, Jul 7, 2022 at 7:43 AM Anton Shevchenko via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>> I made a python implementation for a different mnemonic encoding. The encoding requires user to remember words but not the order of those words.
>>> The code is open (MIT license) at https://github.com/sancoder/noomnem
>> 
>> Thanks Anton. There's an interesting mathematical question of whether it's possible to make a code like this which always uses the BIP-39 words for the same key as part of its encoding, basically adding a few words as error correction in case the order is lost or confused. If the BIP-39 contains a duplicate you can add an extra word.
>> _______________________________________________
>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
> -- 
> 
> Best Regards / S pozdravom,
> 
> Pavol "stick" Rusnak
> Co-Founder, SatoshiLabs

--e7ea70b4334d48ae802f8114293322ec
Content-Type: text/html
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE html><html><head><title></title><style type=3D"text/css">p.Mso=
Normal,p.MsoNoSpacing{margin:0}</style></head><body><div style=3D"font-f=
amily:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">But this will require user to disti=
nguish 12 words from error correcting words. Which is another hassle.<br=
></div><div style=3D"font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;"><br></di=
v><div>On Thu, Jul 7, 2022, at 10:52 AM, Pavol Rusnak wrote:<br></div><b=
lockquote type=3D"cite" id=3D"qt" style=3D""><div dir=3D"auto">There is.=
 Just encode the index of permutation used to scramble the otherwise sor=
ted list. For 12 words you need to store 12! =3D ~32 bits so 3 words sho=
uld be enough.&nbsp;<br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"au=
to">Repetitions make this more difficult, though.&nbsp;<br></div><div><d=
iv><br></div><div class=3D"qt-gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"qt-=
gmail_attr">On Thu 7. 7. 2022 at 19:41, Bram Cohen via bitcoin-dev &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@list=
s.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"qt-gm=
ail_quote" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;ma=
rgin-left:0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-le=
ft:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204, 204, 204);"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D=
"ltr">On Thu, Jul 7, 2022 at 7:43 AM Anton Shevchenko via bitcoin-dev &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_bl=
ank">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><div =
class=3D"qt-gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"qt-gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0.8ex;borde=
r-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-co=
lor:rgb(204, 204, 204);"><div>I made a python implementation for a diffe=
rent mnemonic encoding. The encoding requires user to remember words but=
 not the order of those words.<br></div><div> The code is open (MIT lice=
nse) at <a href=3D"https://github.com/sancoder/noomnem" rel=3D"noreferre=
r" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/sancoder/noomnem</a><br></div></=
blockquote><div><br></div><div>Thanks Anton. There's an interesting math=
ematical question of whether it's possible to make a code like this whic=
h always uses the BIP-39 words for the same key as part of its encoding,=
 basically adding a few words as error correction in case the order is l=
ost or confused. If the BIP-39 contains a duplicate you can add an extra=
 word.<br></div></div></div><div>_______________________________________=
________<br></div><div> bitcoin-dev mailing list<br></div><div> <a href=3D=
"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin=
-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br></div><div> <a href=3D"https://lis=
ts.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bit=
coin-dev</a><br></div></blockquote></div></div><div>-- <br></div><div di=
r=3D"ltr" class=3D"qt-gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D=
"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Best Regards / S pozdravom,<br></div><div><br>=
</div><div>Pavol "stick" Rusnak<br></div><div>Co-Founder, SatoshiLabs<br=
></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div style=3D"font-family:he=
lvetica, arial, sans-serif;"><br></div></body></html>
--e7ea70b4334d48ae802f8114293322ec--