From: S kang <skang404@gmail.com>
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Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2022 06:17:07 -0700
In-Reply-To: <1f575fa24af142126507eebdf0e6b2e8@yancy.lol>
To: email@yancy.lol,
 Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
References: <CAD5xwhjXh33AdK96eToHtDP3t_Zx5JbxCqJFbAQRRRKy6rFC2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <Y1HLgLkCmVJQtqT+@petertodd.org>
 <CAD5xwhhiOReFJq2gOk2n5tJpD-X-x8aKGrdkdrwi1yJCis0y4g@mail.gmail.com>
 <Y1HnJnpW9Al1W8cP@petertodd.org> <1f575fa24af142126507eebdf0e6b2e8@yancy.lol>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Does Bitcoin require or have an honest majority
 or a rational one? (re rbf)
Precedence: list


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Hello respected parties of the bitcoin network,

The point, as put forward by Jeremy is, economic rationality sometimes =
leads to breaking the =E2=80=99social contract=E2=80=99 set earlier in =
history.

Beyond its implications to RBF discussion, following economic =
rationality, rather than trying to uphold the social contract(honesty), =
may lead to hijacking of the network. Few examples: Development/Mining =
might follow the economic rational path of supporting whatever the =
blockchains winning in the market are doing (supporting smart contracts, =
or becoming a privacy chain, etc.) even at the price of giving up peer =
to peer payment system (the meme infinity/21m maybe the opposite of =
issuing multiple coins). A centralized third party may acquire the =
market sentiment to motivate this direction or influence miners/bitcoin =
dev to follow their roadmap, which seems beneficial to individuals until =
the extreme case where the core use-case is needed to secure themselves.

The main issue it seems is consensus(pow-based-vote or market sentiment =
driven improvements) cannot be vetoed by an individual(minority is not =
quite the right term, since it is opposite of majority, vs consensus). =
They can only exit at that point(, as the 'ship sails').

My point is =E2=80=98purity=E2=80=99 about Satoshi's vision(a cringe =
term at this point, but it means nothing more than the original =
=E2=80=99social contract=E2=80=99 here) should be aspired to (while not =
considering Satoshi's word as given truth, as pointed out by the bugs) & =
all =E2=80=98improvements=E2=80=99 must NOT be entertained. On the other =
hand, as pointed out by Peter & Yancy, it may be practically impossible =
to do anything better than economic rationality. (A corollary, is that =
attacks described might have already happened and thus current audience =
might be =E2=80=98unable to grok=E2=80=99 as explained by Jeremy.)

Thanks for your time, mindshare & bearing my lack of academic quality.

- S Kang


> On Oct 21, 2022, at 1:47 AM, yancy via bitcoin-dev =
<bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>=20
>> ...and the easiest way to avoid Bitcoin being a system that doesn't =
arbitrarily
>> change rules, is to rely on economically rational rules that aren't =
likely to
>> change!
> =20
> Yes, I think many people on this thread have been making the same =
point.  This is the basis of the Nash Equilibrium, from what I remember.
> =20
>> This, Satoshi (who doesn't really matter anyways I guess?)
>=20
> =20
> It doesn't seem to me Satoshi was classically trained in CS else maybe =
he/she/they might have referenced the Nash Equilibrium.  Looking at some =
of the other references, including a statistics book titled "An =
Introduction to Probability Theory and its Applications" from 1957 makes =
me think this Satoshi person was closer in training and practice to a =
mathematician.
> =20
> Cheers,
> -Yancy
> =20
> On 2022-10-21 02:26, Peter Todd via bitcoin-dev wrote:
>>=20
>> On Thu, Oct 20, 2022 at 04:54:00PM -0700, Jeremy Rubin wrote:
>>>=20
>>> The difference between honest majority and longest chain is that the
>>> longest chain bug was something acknowledged by Satoshi & patched
>>> =
https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/40cd0369419323f8d7385950e20342e9=
98c994e1#diff-623e3fd6da1a45222eeec71496747b31R420 =
<https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/40cd0369419323f8d7385950e20342e=
998c994e1#diff-623e3fd6da1a45222eeec71496747b31R420>
>>> .
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> OTOH, we have more explicit references that the honest majority =
really
>>> should be thought of as good guys vs bad guys... e.g.
>>=20
>> The point is Satoshi got a lot of very fundamental stuff wrong. =
Bringing up
>> what Satoshi wrote now, almost 14 years later, misleads =
less-technical readers
>> into thinking our understanding of Bitcoin is still based on that =
early,
>> incorrect, understanding.
>>=20
>> Incidentally, you realize that it was _Satoshi_ who added RBF to =
Bitcoin with
>> nSequence replacements. My contribution was to fix that obviously =
broken design
>> with fee-based RBF (with nSequence a transaction could be replaced up =
to 4
>> billion times, using essentially unlimited P2P bandwidth; it was a =
terrible
>> idea).
>>=20
>>> I do think the case can be fairly made for full RBF, but if you =
don't grok
>>> the above maybe you won't have as much empathy for people who built =
a
>>> business around particular aspects of the Bitcoin network that they =
feel
>>> are now being changed. They have every right to be mad about that =
and make
>>> disagreements known and argue for why we should preserve these =
properties.
>>=20
>> Those people run mild sybil attacks on the network in their efforts =
to
>> "mitigate risk" by monitoring propagation; fundamentally doing so is
>> centralizing and unfair, as only a small number of companies can do =
that
>> without DoS attacking the P2P network. It's pretty obvious that =
reliance to
>> zeroconf is harmful to Bitcoin, and people trying to do that have =
repeatedly
>> taken big losses when their risk mitigations turned out to not work. =
Their only
>> right to be mad comes from the 1st Ammendment.
>>=20
>>> As someone who wants for Bitcoin to be a system which doesn't =
arbitrarily
>>> change rules based on the whims of others, I think it important that =
we can
>>> steelman and provide strong cases for why our actions might be in =
the
>>> wrong, so that we make sure our justifications are not only =
well-justified,
>>> but that we can communicate them clearly to all participants in a =
global
>>> value network.
>>=20
>> ...and the easiest way to avoid Bitcoin being a system that doesn't =
arbitrarily
>> change rules, is to rely on economically rational rules that aren't =
likely to
>> change!
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org =
<mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev =
<https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>__________=
_____________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org =
<mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev =
<https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Hello respected parties of the bitcoin network,</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>The point, as put forward by Jeremy is, =
economic rationality sometimes leads to breaking the =E2=80=99social =
contract=E2=80=99 set earlier in history.<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Beyond its implications to RBF =
discussion, following economic rationality, rather than trying to uphold =
the social contract(honesty), may lead to hijacking of the network. Few =
examples: Development/Mining might follow the economic rational path of =
supporting whatever the blockchains winning in the market are doing =
(supporting smart contracts, or becoming a privacy chain, etc.) even at =
the price of giving up peer to peer payment system (the meme =
infinity/21m maybe the opposite of issuing multiple coins). A =
centralized third party may acquire the market sentiment to motivate =
this direction or influence miners/bitcoin dev to follow their roadmap, =
which seems beneficial to individuals until the extreme case where the =
core use-case is needed to secure themselves.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The main issue it seems is =
consensus(pow-based-vote or market sentiment driven improvements) cannot =
be vetoed by an individual(minority is not quite the right term, since =
it is opposite of majority, vs consensus). They can only exit at that =
point(, as the 'ship sails').</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">My point is =E2=80=98purity=E2=80=99 =
about Satoshi's vision(a cringe term at this point, but it means nothing =
more than the original =E2=80=99social contract=E2=80=99 here) should be =
aspired to (while not considering Satoshi's word as given truth, as =
pointed out by the bugs) &amp; all =E2=80=98improvements=E2=80=99 must =
NOT be entertained. On the other hand, as pointed out by Peter &amp; =
Yancy, it may be practically impossible to do anything better than =
economic rationality. (A corollary, is that attacks described might have =
already happened and thus current audience might be =E2=80=98unable to =
grok=E2=80=99 as explained by Jeremy.)<br class=3D""><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D"">Thanks for your time, mindshare &amp; bearing =
my lack of academic quality.</span></div><div><span style=3D"caret-color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></span></div><div><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D"">- S Kang</span></div><div><font =
color=3D"#000000" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></span></font></div><div><font color=3D"#000000"=
 class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></span></font><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Oct 21, 2022, at 1:47 AM, yancy via bitcoin-dev &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" =
class=3D"">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><meta =
charset=3D"UTF-8" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
style=3D"font-family: Verdana, Geneva, sans-serif; font-size: =
13.333333015441895px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; padding: 0px =
0.4em; border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: solid; =
border-left-color: rgb(16, 16, 255); margin: 0px;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"pre" style=3D"margin: 0px; padding: 0px; font-family: =
monospace;">...and the easiest way to avoid Bitcoin being a system that =
doesn't arbitrarily<br class=3D"">change rules, is to rely on =
economically rational rules that aren't likely to<br =
class=3D"">change!</div></blockquote><div class=3D"pre" =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13.333333015441895px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; margin: 0px; =
padding: 0px; font-family: monospace;">&nbsp;</div><div class=3D"pre" =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13.333333015441895px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; margin: 0px; =
padding: 0px; font-family: monospace;">Yes, I think many people on this =
thread have been making the same point.&nbsp; This is the basis of the =
Nash Equilibrium, from what I remember.</div><div class=3D"pre" =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13.333333015441895px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; margin: 0px; =
padding: 0px; font-family: monospace;">&nbsp;</div><div class=3D"pre" =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13.333333015441895px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; margin: 0px; =
padding: 0px; font-family: monospace;"><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
style=3D"padding: 0px 0.4em; border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: =
solid; border-left-color: rgb(16, 16, 255); margin: 0px;" class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"auto" class=3D"">This, Satoshi (who doesn't really matter anyways =
I guess?)</div></blockquote></div><div class=3D"pre" style=3D"caret-color:=
 rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13.333333015441895px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; font-family: =
monospace;">&nbsp;</div><div class=3D"pre" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-size: 13.333333015441895px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; font-family: =
monospace;">It doesn't seem to me Satoshi was classically trained in CS =
else maybe he/she/they might have referenced the Nash Equilibrium.&nbsp; =
Looking at some of the other references, including a statistics book =
titled<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D"left: 355.467px; top: 759.2px; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
serif; transform: scaleX(0.796397); color: rgb(37, 37, 37);" =
class=3D"">"An Introduction to Probability Theory and its Applications" =
from 1957</span><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>makes =
me think this Satoshi person was closer in training and practice to a =
mathematician.</div><div class=3D"pre" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-size: 13.333333015441895px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; font-family: =
monospace;">&nbsp;</div><div class=3D"pre" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-size: 13.333333015441895px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; font-family: =
monospace;">Cheers,</div><div class=3D"pre" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-size: 13.333333015441895px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; font-family: =
monospace;">-Yancy</div><div class=3D"pre" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-size: 13.333333015441895px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; font-family: =
monospace;">&nbsp;</div><div class=3D"pre" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-size: 13.333333015441895px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; font-family: =
monospace;">On 2022-10-21 02:26, Peter Todd via bitcoin-dev =
wrote:<blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"padding: 0px 0.4em; =
border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: =
rgb(16, 16, 255); margin: 0px;" class=3D"">On Thu, Oct 20, 2022 at =
04:54:00PM -0700, Jeremy Rubin wrote:<blockquote type=3D"cite" =
style=3D"padding: 0px 0.4em; border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: =
solid; border-left-color: rgb(16, 16, 255); margin: 0px;" class=3D"">The =
difference between honest majority and longest chain is that the<br =
class=3D"">longest chain bug was something acknowledged by Satoshi &amp; =
patched<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/40cd0369419323f8d7385950=
e20342e998c994e1#diff-623e3fd6da1a45222eeec71496747b31R420" =
target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noopener noreferrer" =
class=3D"">https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/40cd0369419323f8d7385=
950e20342e998c994e1#diff-623e3fd6da1a45222eeec71496747b31R420</a><br =
class=3D"">.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">OTOH, we have =
more explicit references that the honest majority really<br =
class=3D"">should be thought of as good guys vs bad guys... =
e.g.</blockquote><br class=3D"">The point is Satoshi got a lot of very =
fundamental stuff wrong. Bringing up<br class=3D"">what Satoshi wrote =
now, almost 14 years later, misleads less-technical readers<br =
class=3D"">into thinking our understanding of Bitcoin is still based on =
that early,<br class=3D"">incorrect, understanding.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Incidentally, you realize that it was _Satoshi_ who added RBF =
to Bitcoin with<br class=3D"">nSequence replacements. My contribution =
was to fix that obviously broken design<br class=3D"">with fee-based RBF =
(with nSequence a transaction could be replaced up to 4<br =
class=3D"">billion times, using essentially unlimited P2P bandwidth; it =
was a terrible<br class=3D"">idea).<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"padding: 0px 0.4em; =
border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: =
rgb(16, 16, 255); margin: 0px;" class=3D"">I do think the case can be =
fairly made for full RBF, but if you don't grok<br class=3D"">the above =
maybe you won't have as much empathy for people who built a<br =
class=3D"">business around particular aspects of the Bitcoin network =
that they feel<br class=3D"">are now being changed. They have every =
right to be mad about that and make<br class=3D"">disagreements known =
and argue for why we should preserve these properties.</blockquote><br =
class=3D"">Those people run mild sybil attacks on the network in their =
efforts to<br class=3D"">"mitigate risk" by monitoring propagation; =
fundamentally doing so is<br class=3D"">centralizing and unfair, as only =
a small number of companies can do that<br class=3D"">without DoS =
attacking the P2P network. It's pretty obvious that reliance to<br =
class=3D"">zeroconf is harmful to Bitcoin, and people trying to do that =
have repeatedly<br class=3D"">taken big losses when their risk =
mitigations turned out to not work. Their only<br class=3D"">right to be =
mad comes from the 1st Ammendment.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"padding: 0px 0.4em; =
border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: =
rgb(16, 16, 255); margin: 0px;" class=3D"">As someone who wants for =
Bitcoin to be a system which doesn't arbitrarily<br class=3D"">change =
rules based on the whims of others, I think it important that we can<br =
class=3D"">steelman and provide strong cases for why our actions might =
be in the<br class=3D"">wrong, so that we make sure our justifications =
are not only well-justified,<br class=3D"">but that we can communicate =
them clearly to all participants in a global<br class=3D"">value =
network.</blockquote><br class=3D"">...and the easiest way to avoid =
Bitcoin being a system that doesn't arbitrarily<br class=3D"">change =
rules, is to rely on economically rational rules that aren't likely =
to<br class=3D"">change!<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">bitcoin-dev mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" =
class=3D"">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noopener noreferrer" =
class=3D"">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev<=
/a></blockquote></div><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Verdana, Geneva, sans-serif; font-size: =
13.333333015441895px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Verdana, Geneva, =
sans-serif; font-size: 13.333333015441895px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Verdana, Geneva, sans-serif; font-size: =
13.333333015441895px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">bitcoin-dev =
mailing list</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Verdana, Geneva, sans-serif; font-size: 13.333333015441895px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; =
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