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From: Eric Lombrozo <elombrozo@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <CANEZrP33GCiZHK1GV2Qt_R_AHK6SEjybGPtmORjqgvQ9MiYVZQ@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2015 03:52:48 -0700
Message-Id: <5E49FE9F-CC70-4DFD-8055-68E9372923DF@gmail.com>
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To: Mike Hearn <mike@plan99.net>
Cc: Bitcoin Development <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>,
	Gavin Andresen <gavin@bitcoinfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Concerns Regarding Threats by a Developer
	to Remove Commit Access from Other Developers
Precedence: list


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> On Jun 19, 2015, at 2:37 AM, Mike Hearn <mike@plan99.net> wrote:
>=20
> Or alternatively, fix the reasons why users would have negative =
experiences with full blocks
>=20
> It's impossible, Mark. By definition if Bitcoin does not have =
sufficient capacity for everyone's transactions, some users who were =
using it will be kicked out to make way for the others. Whether that =
happens in some kind of stable organised way or (as with the current =
code) a fairly chaotic way doesn't change the fundamental truth: some =
users will find their bitcoin savings have become uneconomic to spend.
>=20
> Here's a recent user complaint that provides a preview of coming =
attractions:
>=20
> =
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/39r3bi/breadwallet_asking_me_to_=
pay_over_10_network_fee/ =
<https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/39r3bi/breadwallet_asking_me_to=
_pay_over_10_network_fee/>
>=20
> Hello, I'm just trying to send my small Sarutobi-tips stash (12,159 =
bits) onto a paper wallet. When I try to send it, a window pops up =
stating "insufficient funds for bitcoin network fee, reduce payment =
amount by 1,389 bits?" This would be a fee of $0.32 to send my $2.82, =
leaving me with $2.50.
>=20
> These sorts of complaints will get more frequent and more extreme in =
the coming months. I realise that nobody at Blockstream is  in the =
position of running an end user facing service, but many of us are .... =
and we will be the ones that face the full anger of ordinary users as =
Bitcoin hits the wall.

Mike,

With all due respect, many of us DO run end user facing services=E2=80=A6a=
nd would rather see a fundamental problem *fixed* rather than merely =
covered up temporarily=E2=80=A6hoping nobody notices.

The user experience of Bitcoin is already horrendous=E2=80=A6unless you =
use a centralized validator web wallet. Even SPV is fundamentally broken =
(and I would have pegged you for being one of the people most directly =
aware of this fact). If we=E2=80=99re going for centralized validation, =
why even use a blockchain in the first place? We already have much =
faster, more efficient technology that can do that kind of stuff at a =
fraction of the cost. If you have well-established entities running =
banking services, we have other mechanisms in place that can help keep =
them honest=E2=80=A6other far more efficient protocols. We=E2=80=99re =
basically defeating the very purpose of this invention.

Then there are a bunch of other =E2=80=9Cinconveniences=E2=80=9D about =
the way Bitcoin currently works. For instance, have you ever received a =
bunch of small payments (i.e. a crowdsale) and then found yourself in =
the position of having to suddenly move a big chunk of that on the =
blockchain=E2=80=A6only to discover all the txouts you were spending =
added up to hundreds of kB or more? Or have you ever had to send a small =
payment but only had one large output in your wallet=E2=80=A6which meant =
that the entirety of those funds were tied up until the first =
transaction got signed and propagated? Yes, the protocol has MANY =
serious issues=E2=80=A6of which the =E2=80=9Csend and forget=E2=80=9D =
fee model as opposed to the =E2=80=9Csend and bid model=E2=80=9D is just =
one.

Bitcoin was designed from the beginning with the idea that sooner or =
later fees would be a significant component of the network. The problem =
was never really fully addressed and solved - I=E2=80=99m glad to see =
that finally some good people in this space are starting to seriously =
think about solutions.

Mike, are you telling us you=E2=80=99d rather avoid user complaints at =
all costs even if that means building something shitty for them that =
doesn=E2=80=99t really serve its stated purpose? If those are your =
standards then no thanks, I don=E2=80=99t want to be part of your fork. =
And I don=E2=80=99t think I=E2=80=99m alone in this sentiment.


- Eric Lombrozo


> =
--------------------------------------------------------------------------=
----
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development



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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Jun 19, 2015, at 2:37 AM, Mike Hearn &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mike@plan99.net" class=3D"">mike@plan99.net</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px =
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left=
-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"">Or =
alternatively, fix the reasons why users would have negative experiences =
with full blocks</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">It's impossible, Mark. <i class=3D"">By =
definition</i>&nbsp;if Bitcoin does not have sufficient capacity for =
everyone's transactions, some users who were using it will be kicked out =
to make way for the others. Whether that happens in some kind of stable =
organised way or (as with the current code) a fairly chaotic way doesn't =
change the fundamental truth: <b class=3D"">some users will find their =
bitcoin savings have become uneconomic to spend</b>.</div><div =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><br class=3D""></b></div><div class=3D"">Here's =
a recent user complaint that provides a preview of coming =
attractions:</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/39r3bi/breadwallet_askin=
g_me_to_pay_over_10_network_fee/" =
class=3D"">https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/39r3bi/breadwallet_as=
king_me_to_pay_over_10_network_fee/</a><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px =
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left=
-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><span =
style=3D"font-family:Verdana,arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;line-height:1=
8.2000007629395px" class=3D"">Hello, I'm just trying to send my small =
Sarutobi-tips stash (12,159 bits) onto a paper wallet. When I try to =
send it, a window pops up stating "insufficient funds for bitcoin =
network fee, reduce payment amount by 1,389 bits?" This would be a fee =
of $0.32 to send my $2.82, leaving me with =
$2.50.</span></blockquote><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">These sorts of complaints will get more frequent and more =
extreme in the coming months. I realise that nobody at Blockstream is =
&nbsp;in the position of running an end user facing service, but many of =
us are .... and we will be the ones that face the full anger of ordinary =
users as Bitcoin hits the =
wall.</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Mike,</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>With all =
due respect, many of us DO run end user facing services=E2=80=A6and =
would rather see a fundamental problem *fixed* rather than merely =
covered up temporarily=E2=80=A6hoping nobody notices.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>The user experience of Bitcoin is already =
horrendous=E2=80=A6unless you use a centralized validator web wallet. =
Even SPV is fundamentally broken (and I would have pegged you for being =
one of the people most directly aware of this fact). If we=E2=80=99re =
going for centralized validation, why even use a blockchain in the first =
place? We already have much faster, more efficient technology that can =
do that kind of stuff at a fraction of the cost. If you have =
well-established entities running banking services, we have other =
mechanisms in place that can help keep them honest=E2=80=A6other far =
more efficient protocols. We=E2=80=99re basically defeating the very =
purpose of this invention.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Then =
there are a bunch of other =E2=80=9Cinconveniences=E2=80=9D about the =
way Bitcoin currently works. For instance, have you ever received a =
bunch of small payments (i.e. a crowdsale) and then found yourself in =
the position of having to suddenly move a big chunk of that on the =
blockchain=E2=80=A6only to discover all the txouts you were spending =
added up to hundreds of kB or more? Or have you ever had to send a small =
payment but only had one large output in your wallet=E2=80=A6which meant =
that the entirety of those funds were tied up until the first =
transaction got signed and propagated? Yes, the protocol has MANY =
serious issues=E2=80=A6of which the =E2=80=9Csend and forget=E2=80=9D =
fee model as opposed to the =E2=80=9Csend and bid model=E2=80=9D is just =
one.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Bitcoin was designed from the =
beginning with the idea that sooner or later fees would be a significant =
component of the network. The problem was never really fully addressed =
and solved - I=E2=80=99m glad to see that finally some good people in =
this space are starting to seriously think about =
solutions.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Mike, are you telling us =
you=E2=80=99d rather avoid user complaints at all costs even if that =
means building something shitty for them that doesn=E2=80=99t really =
serve its stated purpose? If those are your standards then no thanks, I =
don=E2=80=99t want to be part of your fork. And I don=E2=80=99t think =
I=E2=80=99m alone in this sentiment.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>- Eric =
Lombrozo</div><div><br class=3D""></div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">
=
--------------------------------------------------------------------------=
----<br class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">Bitcoin-development mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net" =
class=3D"">Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net</a><br =
class=3D"">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-developmen=
t<br class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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