00:01:12 AndChat|522641 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:04:59 rs2 has quit 00:05:06 DougieBot5000 has quit 00:07:17 MoALTz_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:08:21 nsh has quit 00:10:01 MoALTz has quit 00:21:35 roidster has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:21:52 AndChat|522641 has quit 00:22:10 rs2 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:22:41 jtimon has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:31:01 jtimon has quit 00:36:24 Anduck has quit 00:37:37 epscy has quit 00:37:43 Anduck has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:37:44 jtimon has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:41:02 adam3us has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:56:04 antephialtic has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:59:16 has anyone looked at the multi sig implementations being used on darknets? 01:02:35 http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=1GFj9hPB is the source of the electrum plugin on TMP if anyone is interested 01:02:59 'darknets' ? 01:03:06 well tor 01:03:09 and i2p 01:03:49 sorry if this is off topic 01:04:11 I just thought it counted as a slightly novel use of bitcoin 01:04:36 AndChat|522641 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:07:41 justanotheruser is now known as just[dead] 01:07:59 rs2 has quit 01:08:12 i don't see the relevance of it in that question 01:08:39 in which question? 01:08:40 sipa: the reason he's asking is that apparently some of these tor drug market things are using multisig for their escrow stuff. 01:09:03 I'm doubtful that the implementation is competent, but I really haven't heard anything about it... am not really all that eager to go looking. :) 01:09:22 (though I support people using multisig for escrow!) 01:09:26 MoALTz_ has quit 01:09:51 from what I've seen, seems like one market did a decent job with an electrum plugin 01:10:07 and one that asks you to send them your private key when you want to release funds 01:10:29 there was some guide with screenshot on "clearnet" somewhere 01:10:54 yea, an electrum plugin would be a good way to go. 01:17:44 Krellan_ has quit 01:18:46 AndChat-522641 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:20:58 AndChat|522641 has quit 01:21:05 rs2 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:21:59 rdymac has quit 01:23:52 AndChat-522641 has quit 01:24:11 are there any other websites using multi sig escrow at the moment? 01:24:21 rdymac has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:30:55 poggy, there's bitrated.com, that provides a web interface for that 01:31:09 (I created it) 01:34:24 rdymac has quit 01:37:21 rdymac has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:51:15 rdymac has quit 01:53:51 rdymac has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:01:35 shinybro_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:03:08 <[\\\]> [\\\] has quit 02:03:26 espes__ has quit 02:03:38 espes__ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:04:45 sirius has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:04:53 jedunnigan has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:04:59 rdymac has quit 02:05:21 <[\\\]> [\\\] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:06:11 imsaguy_c has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:06:17 kinlo_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:06:39 samesong has quit 02:06:47 sirius_ has quit 02:06:48 kinlo has quit 02:06:49 imsaguy has quit 02:07:51 rdymac has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:12:07 kinlo_ is now known as kinlo 02:14:04 samson_ has quit 02:14:57 orvilleWRT has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:15:42 samson_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:18:43 rdymac has quit 02:18:51 rdymac has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:19:11 zacm_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:20:03 jtimon_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:20:38 otoburb_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:21:38 mr_burde_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:21:40 otoburb_ is now known as Guest67195 02:23:04 nsh has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:24:15 orvilleWRT has quit 02:24:34 jedunnig_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:25:00 otoburb has quit 02:25:01 ageis has quit 02:25:01 jtimon has quit 02:25:02 d34th has quit 02:25:02 zacm has quit 02:25:02 mr_burdell has quit 02:25:02 jedunnigan has quit 02:25:06 shinybro has quit 02:25:06 warren has quit 02:25:06 perrier_ has quit 02:25:26 ageis has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:25:36 Graet has quit 02:25:50 ageis is now known as Guest77102 02:26:13 warren has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:26:43 tromp__ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:26:44 orvilleWRT has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:26:51 Baz has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:27:12 orvilleWRT has quit 02:27:19 Ursium_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:28:20 spinza has quit 02:28:21 spin123456 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:31:03 rdymac has quit 02:34:21 rdymac has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:35:21 jedunnig_ has quit 02:35:22 espes__ has quit 02:35:23 antephialtic has quit 02:35:24 BazBaz has quit 02:35:25 Ursium has quit 02:35:25 tromp has quit 02:35:25 weex has quit 02:35:27 sl01 has quit 02:35:30 HM has quit 02:35:30 mr_burde_ has quit 02:35:30 Guest67195 has quit 02:35:30 zacm_ has quit 02:35:30 kinlo has quit 02:35:30 shinybro_ has quit 02:35:30 c0rw1n has quit 02:35:32 tetra has quit 02:35:32 Manfred_Karrer has quit 02:35:33 iddo has quit 02:35:33 airbreather has quit 02:35:33 helo has quit 02:35:34 kaptah has quit 02:35:35 maaku has quit 02:35:35 ebfull has quit 02:36:07 epscy has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:43:03 rdymac has quit 02:46:21 rdymac has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:56:05 eristisk has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:57:05 antephialtic has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:04:03 postpre has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:04:43 Hunger-- has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:05:19 roasbeef_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:06:10 spinza has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:06:13 adam3us has quit 03:06:13 so has quit 03:06:13 Hunger- has quit 03:06:14 prepost has quit 03:06:14 asoltys_ has quit 03:06:15 roasbeef has quit 03:06:16 imsaguy_c has quit 03:06:45 spin123456 has quit 03:07:06 cpacia has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:07:29 so has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:07:31 imsaguy has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:17:20 eristisk has quit 03:20:05 nanotube has quit 03:20:48 Anduck_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:24:40 so has quit 03:24:41 tromp__ has quit 03:24:43 <[\\\]> [\\\] has quit 03:24:43 Anduck has quit 03:24:46 emsid has quit 03:24:47 andytoshi has quit 03:24:47 irclouis has quit 03:24:47 phantomcircuit has quit 03:24:49 UukGoblin has quit 03:24:49 jron has quit 03:24:50 Fistful_of_Coins has quit 03:24:50 wumpus has quit 03:25:24 therealnanotube has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:25:30 phantomcircuit has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:26:18 therealnanotube is now known as nanotube 03:26:29 jron has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:31:09 emsid has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:36:36 d34th has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:37:31 d34th has quit 03:38:31 d34th has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:40:39 just[dead] is now known as justanotheruser 03:45:00 Guest77102 is now known as ageis 03:57:36 nsh has quit 04:00:38 antephialtic has quit 04:09:59 nsh has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:15:11 nsh has quit 04:21:16 cpacia has quit 04:21:31 orvilleWRT has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:22:23 rs2 has quit 04:29:54 orvilleWRT has left #bitcoin-wizards 04:44:03 digitalmagus8 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:31:23 Baz has quit 05:32:11 rdymac has quit 05:38:51 rdymac has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:52:37 Emcy has quit 06:13:26 justanotheruser is now known as just[dead] 06:16:48 roidster has quit 06:41:59 rdymac has quit 06:47:36 rdymac has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:48:24 eristisk has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:49:21 antephialtic has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:57:56 rdymac has quit 07:06:53 rdymac has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:13:53 rdymac has quit 07:21:52 rdymac has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:31:23 digitalmagus8 has quit 07:35:20 rdymac has quit 07:40:51 rdymac has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:52:47 tetra has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:52:47 digitalmagus8 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:52:47 shinybro has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:52:47 dansmith_btc has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:52:47 Emcy has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:52:47 Baz has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:52:47 maaku has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:52:47 tromp has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:52:47 rs2 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:52:47 otoburb has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:52:47 adam3us has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:52:47 andytoshi has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:52:47 Fistful_of_Coins has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:52:47 UukGoblin has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:52:47 irclouis has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:52:47 <[\\\]> [\\\] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:52:47 so has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:52:47 wumpus has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:52:47 ebfull has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:52:47 kaptah has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:52:47 helo has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:52:47 airbreather has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:52:47 iddo has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:52:47 Manfred_Karrer has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:52:47 c0rw1n has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:52:47 kinlo has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:52:47 zacm has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:52:47 weex has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:52:47 asoltys has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:52:47 HM has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:52:47 sl01 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:52:47 espes__ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:52:47 perrier_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:52:47 Graet has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:53:34 Graet has quit 07:53:34 Graet has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:56:06 Emcy is now known as Guest5445 07:56:37 Muis has quit 07:57:02 michagogo|cloud has quit 07:57:10 weex is now known as Guest42545 07:57:13 otoburb is now known as Guest93156 07:57:13 maaku is now known as Guest61397 08:00:38 rdymac has quit 08:04:33 Baz has quit 08:04:56 Muis has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:04:57 michagogo|cloud has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:05:14 Baz has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:05:51 rdymac has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:33:38 rdymac has quit 08:40:51 rdymac has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:44:54 TD has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:51:50 avantgeek has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:59:59 rs2 has quit 09:05:27 fanquake has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:10:59 LarsLarsen has quit 09:17:17 Ksipax has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:17:21 rs2 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:23:35 shesek has quit 09:24:18 LarsLarsen has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:24:25 MoALTz has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:28:59 LarsLarsen has quit 09:35:54 shesek has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:49:40 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:12:21 Anduck_ is now known as Anduck 10:17:18 antephialtic has quit 10:20:56 fanquake has quit 10:25:38 nsh has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:28:04 rdymac has quit 10:29:21 rdymac has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:38:46 rdymac has quit 10:43:21 rdymac has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:04:34 sl01 has quit 11:04:41 sl01 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:04:59 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has quit 11:06:53 Mike_B has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:07:24 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:07:41 gmaxwell, i had a question about your merkle tree proof-of-reserves scheme (figured i'd better ask here than in the gox chan) 11:07:48 sure 11:07:58 so say you (for some reason) are operating a system in which users can lend bitcoin to one another, so that they can have negative balances 11:08:12 so some users have positive balances, some have negative balances, but it all is supposed to sum up to some total amount of reserves 11:08:28 is there some clever way to alter the merkle tree scheme so that it still can handle negative balances? 11:09:06 and, i guess, somehow prevent the exchange operator from adding a ton of spurious negative balances to make it seem like there are less reserves needed than there actually are 11:10:37 I still think in that case what you'd do is split users into two balances "asset balance" and "obligation balance" ... asset balance reflect their share of the assets the service should hold, people who are in debt would just be 0. 11:11:56 ah, so you'd have two merkle trees basically? 11:12:10 man that's clever 11:12:27 I think that works, I'd probably have to better understand the service to be completely sure of it. 11:13:09 a lot of this stuff is just the same ideas .. repeated at different scales and angles. Once your toolbelt is big enough they're not that surprising. :) 11:13:19 eh, I just pulled the service out of thin air, it's kind of a contrived example... it was just the math i was trying to understand 11:13:43 heh, starting to appreciate that more and more as i keep diving in... 11:13:53 e.g. I think I extracted a half dozen applications for "make a transaction that also requires a hash preimage to spend" 11:14:30 rdymac has quit 11:14:34 i was reading a paper on PoW and someone suggested it as a "web metering" tool, which i thought was interesting 11:14:40 never thought of that before 11:16:48 gmaxwell: my application is a bit silly, i was actually thinking initially of something like a reddit upvote/downvote site - i was wondering how you might prove somehow that you as a site operator haven't added spurious votes 11:17:02 but then i thought that it'd basically be the same thing as a bitcoin exchange where negative balances are allowed (for some weird reason) 11:18:34 and balances are always +/-1 11:18:58 nsh has quit 11:19:13 yea, actually similar to constructing proofs that mining pools aren't stuffing their sharechains. 11:20:02 ah wow, i never thought of that 11:20:52 rdymac has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:21:00 gmaxwell: how would they stuff it without just having extra mining power needed to mine the easy blocks? 11:21:34 pool stuffing is where a pool claims it is getting more shares than it is.. then it seems unlucky. 11:21:47 and the operator is getting paid but not working 11:22:55 for the votes ... one way to do it would be to encrypt the users names (with a key that depends on the item id). .. you place the votes in a binary search hashtree. You use the root of the tree to pick some users at random and prove their membership and decryption but not what they voted. so that shows that it's not being stuffed with users that don't exist. then for each user you show them the path to where they should be in the ... 11:23:01 ... tree (search tree), and they're there and their vote is right and they can see it's counted, or they're correctly not there. 11:24:16 probably too expensive for some silly upvote downvote thing, bandwidth wise (And complexity). 11:24:27 gavinandresen has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:25:13 Manfred_Karrer has quit 11:27:59 rdymac has quit 11:29:28 gmaxwell: sorry a bit confused... so for each item, you're saying to create a tree of only the users who voted on it. each node consists of their encrypted name, their vote, and some kind of combined hash of all those values for the two parent notes - right? 11:29:51 and yeah, the upvote/downvote thing is a contrived example, i'm just trying to understand the general reasoning behind this idea and how it applies in various situations to develop more of a mental "toolbox" like you were saying 11:29:58 right and the tree is ordered, so that if you're in it, you know exactly where you'll be. 11:30:23 (ordered and the parent nodes have the boundaries in them.) 11:31:21 ah, like ordered in terms of user id, or hashed user id, or something like that? 11:31:38 just any linear order at all that can be made public? 11:31:51 rdymac has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:31:51 nsh has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:36:58 shesek has quit 11:37:18 sure hashed userid, just so the user can compute it himself and see if he's there where he should/shouldn't be. 11:37:25 TD has quit 11:37:41 there are basically two things you need to test here. One is that the particular user is counted/not counted as the case may be. 11:37:52 the other is that the count isn't stuffed with extra users that ought not exist. 11:38:54 you can accomplish some evidence of the second just by revealing some random fraction of the users in the set, selected by the hash of the set (this is the fiat-shamir transform of a cut and choose protocol). (without revealing their votes). 11:41:35 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has quit 11:41:54 fiat-shamir transform looks cool, i need to get a better grip on actual zkp math 11:42:06 would that stop a site operator from creating like 1,000,000 dummy user accounts and making them "exist" in the system? 11:42:12 you know, like a mini-dragnet or whatever 11:42:44 fake people who appear real with plausible-sounding fake names like "Max Gregwell" and etc, but just don't have any social security numbers anywhere =P 11:42:57 well right I was assuming you'd have some way to spot fake users. 11:43:08 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:43:12 like some verifyable way that creating a user cost something, or a post history, or ... something. 11:43:20 web of trust 11:43:23 haha 11:43:54 alright, very interesting. thanks for that 11:44:13 i have no plans to create a cryptographic reddit, but when i first saw that merkle tree scheme my head exploded 11:44:34 that came totally out of left field for me like some kind of crazy moon math i never thought of 11:44:43 so i'm trying to see how far you could push it, but it seems like... pretty far 11:47:35 jtimon_ has quit 11:48:20 rdymac has quit 11:50:10 * gmaxwell misses witcoin 11:52:26 rdymac has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:52:26 MoALTz has quit 11:52:31 Guest93156 has quit 11:52:39 otoburb has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:52:39 otoburb has quit 11:52:39 otoburb has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:03:34 MoALTz has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:07:35 rdymac has quit 12:13:51 rdymac has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:15:12 gavinandresen has quit 12:18:18 gavinandresen has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:24:09 mr_burdell has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:26:57 gavinandresen has quit 12:27:23 rdymac has quit 12:35:51 rdymac has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:44:18 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has quit 12:46:15 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:48:50 shinybro_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:49:15 shinybro has quit 12:50:01 Mike_B has quit 12:53:36 TD has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:05:37 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has quit 13:07:06 mr_burdell has quit 13:07:47 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:10:43 would it be extreme (memory usage, bandwidth) for an altcoin to move to a merkle signature scheme? 13:13:09 gavinandresen has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:13:49 unless quantum crypto, i doubt the overhead of that could be justified 13:16:30 TheSeven has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:30:46 shinybro has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:32:16 shinybro_ has quit 13:35:53 roidster has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:57:50 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has quit 13:59:44 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:03:49 Ksipax has quit 14:11:20 rdymac has quit 14:13:12 andytoshi has quit 14:13:13 andytoshi has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:17:21 rdymac has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:29:52 gavinandresen has quit 14:43:51 TD has quit 14:46:32 rdymac has quit 14:49:21 rdymac has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:49:41 Manfred_Karrer has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:04:41 rdymac has quit 15:11:08 <[\\\]> [\\\] has quit 15:11:21 rdymac has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:14:19 TD has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:17:53 rdymac has quit 15:19:08 davvblack has quit 15:22:06 rdymac has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:27:14 rdymac has quit 15:32:06 rdymac has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:37:11 DougieBot5000 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:41:12 samesong has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:45:42 HM is now known as HM2 15:50:57 spinza has quit 15:53:01 otoburb_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:53:38 otoburb_ is now known as Guest14765 15:53:50 Guest14765 has quit 15:53:59 otoburb__ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:53:59 otoburb__ has quit 15:53:59 otoburb__ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:55:18 otoburb is now known as Guest8824 15:59:12 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has quit 16:06:24 avantgeek has quit 16:06:55 <_ingsoc_> _ingsoc_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:07:27 <23LAALHAA> 23LAALHAA has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:07:27 spinza has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:07:28 otoburb__ is now known as 16WAA079O 16:08:06 wumpus has quit 16:08:49 HM2 has quit 16:08:58 otoburb__ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:09:04 sl01 has quit 16:09:05 wumpus has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:09:05 <23LAALHAA> 23LAALHAA has quit 16:09:05 wumpus has quit 16:09:05 wumpus has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:09:07 Guest8824 has quit 16:09:11 otoburb__ has quit 16:09:11 otoburb__ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:09:28 HM has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:11:23 rdymac has quit 16:12:12 sl01 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:36:30 Ksipax has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:36:30 Ksipax has quit 16:37:41 otoburb__ is now known as otoburb 16:52:41 adam3us: so I think you can use 2-way pegging to to achieve Chiemgauer-like issuance for perishable assets like freicoin 16:53:03