00:00:38 andytoshi: see my reply: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=492969.msg5515776#msg5515776 00:00:52 i know. and he was already on my ignore list, so i didn't expect much 00:01:30 thx a ton for the support tho 00:02:14 my reply was pretty curt, i should work on being more patient, he actually read my doc so perhaps if i'd been nicer he would've listened to it.. 00:03:00 licnep has quit 00:03:39 rdymac has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:09:50 gmaxwell: the interpreter, assembler and disassembler are almost ready 00:09:58 rdymac has quit 00:10:09 I need to ask eli some minor questions, mostly about the latest version 00:10:24 I also wrote a bunch of unit tests for the interpreter 00:11:09 rdymac has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:11:44 realazthat: looked into adding gdb support for it interpreter? :P 00:11:49 er for the 00:11:51 lol 00:11:55 I wouldn't know how 00:12:06 it is all in python btw 00:12:11 lol okay. 00:12:18 zooko has quit 00:12:25 it's actually pretty straight forward, grab the source, look at sim/moxie ... but it is in C. 00:13:08 I know C, but I am not sure how they would interact 00:13:26 ok I'll look into that once it is usable 00:14:36 DougieBot5000 has quit 00:15:24 c0rw1n has quit 00:18:47 Emcy has quit 00:19:20 digitalmagus7 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:19:29 Emcy has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:19:29 Emcy has quit 00:19:29 Emcy has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:25:17 tromp has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:28:47 gmaxwell: would I be implementing this for tinyram assembly? 00:28:59 usually gdb is for a higher level language, no? 00:30:38 realazthat: gdb works on assembly, but no the idea is that gdb can simulate the machine in question, and with the right debugging symbols on your binary, gdb allows you to debug the C code you started with. 00:31:15 ah it can simulate the entire thing 00:31:17 interesting 00:31:29 so basically I would be porting it to some gdb-scripting-language? 00:32:08 or how does it know how to simulate the machine 00:32:31 you implement a simulator in gdb, thats whats in the sim directory... there are simulators for basically every arch gdb supports. 00:32:51 ok so now I understand 00:32:56 and I should look at moxie 00:33:48 moxie has a lot of references... as its very much like tinyram, and has gdb and gcc support. 00:43:02 rdymac has quit 00:47:09 rdymac has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:47:26 rdymac has quit 00:53:29 eristisk has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:53:29 andytoshi-logbot has quit 00:53:29 Disconnected from irc.freenode.net (ERROR :Closing Link: S0106c0c1c0894c25.vs.shawcable.net (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)) 00:57:52 andytoshi-logbot has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:57:52 topic is: "Bitcoin research, hardfork wishlist, ideas for the future - see also: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Hardfork_Wishlist https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/User:Gmaxwell/alt_ideas. This channel is logged at http://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/wizards/. For questions about the logs talk to andytoshi." 00:57:52 Users on #bitcoin-wizards: andytoshi-logbot c0rw1n andytosh1 rdymac eristisk tromp Emcy digitalmagus7 Krellan pajarillo samesong go1111111 spin123456 e4xit Hunger- forrestv pigeons ageis ens midnightmagic shinybro maaku samson_ just[dead] roidster realazthat shesek Ursium asoltys adam3us iddo thrasher liteStrikening airbreather stonecoldpat ebfull [\\\] Luke-Jr tt_texas imsaguy mikalv sirius perrier_ phantomcircuit Anduck copumpkin davvblack emsid jgarzik azariah4 00:57:52 Users on #bitcoin-wizards: artifexd austinhill nOgAnOo situation ttttetra OneFixt epscy CodeShark mr_burdell postpre a5m0 rs0 nanotube HM2 sl01 Muis so jrmithdobbs jcorgan roasbeef UukGoblin tucenaber jron Logicwax gribble michagogo|cloud edulix kanzure Sangheili c--O-O espes__ kinlo Fistful_of_Coins tromp_ wumpus trn Graet helo otoburb warren zacm d34th weex keus sipa Alanius_ mmozeiko hno EasyAt K1773R gmaxwell Ryan52 area harrow comboy amiller matrixfox petertodd 00:57:52 Users on #bitcoin-wizards: heakins @ChanServ optimator ryan-c Manfred__ wangbus cfields Sorcier_FXK jarpiain grzs bobke BitCoroner crucif0rm BlueMatt poggy 01:12:12 Krellan_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:12:30 jtimon has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:21:37 ttttetra has quit 01:23:31 andytosh1 is now known as andytoshi 01:34:07 Emcy has quit 01:34:32 Emcy has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:36:43 shinybro_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:43:18 c0rw1n has quit 01:46:31 Emcy has quit 01:47:00 Emcy has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:47:00 Emcy has quit 01:47:00 Emcy has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:48:31 Guest80181 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:52:10 c0rw1n has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:53:47 Guest80181 is now known as kaptah 01:57:27 zooko has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:03:31 Ursium has quit 02:09:38 eristisk has quit 02:10:49 CodeShark has quit 02:13:36 wallet42 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:18:29 wallet42 has quit 02:43:05 wallet42 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:44:00 Krellan_ has quit 02:47:29 wallet42 has quit 02:49:05 samesong has quit 02:50:23 Ursium has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:54:43 samesong has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:12:08 gmaxwell, when did hashfast hire general council? 03:24:12 amiller has quit 03:24:48 matrixfox has quit 03:49:24 matrixfox has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:55:10 Guest61739 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:00:55 liteStrikening has quit 04:03:44 wyager has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:12:05 irclouis has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:18:45 pajarillo has quit 04:19:33 wyager has quit 04:23:59 c0rw1n has quit 04:38:48 pajarillo has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:45:12 zooko has quit 05:01:35 artifexd_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:03:11 artifexd_ has quit 05:03:36 artifexd_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:04:27 artifexd has quit 05:05:41 shinybro_ has quit 05:33:24 tromp has quit 05:33:59 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:53:47 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has quit 05:55:24 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:00:18 wyager has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:07:28 spinza has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:07:38 spin123456 has quit 06:22:29 shesek has quit 06:22:59 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has quit 06:25:02 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:32:23 antephialtic has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:40:37 tromp has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:42:18 Emcy has quit 06:43:02 wallet42 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:45:30 tromp has quit 06:47:13 wallet42 has quit 07:04:21 wyager has quit 07:06:33 phantomcircuit: mid december 07:07:24 phantomcircuit: probably in response to one of their customers suing— who bought very early on before they'd given the dec31st "refund date" and the only date that person had was oct 20th. 07:07:45 just[dead] has quit 07:07:45 just[dead] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:07:52 sn0wp has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:10:46 sn0wp has quit 07:14:42 nsh has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:22:34 ielo has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:26:58 Emcy has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:26:58 Emcy has quit 07:26:58 Emcy has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:35:47 adam3us has quit 07:36:04 adam3us has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:41:21 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has quit 07:41:23 samesong has quit 07:48:58 just[dead] is now known as justanotheruser 08:02:07 Emcy_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:05:09 Krellan has quit 08:05:55 Krellan has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:06:14 matrixfo1 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:06:17 emsid has quit 08:06:29 emsid has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:06:30 asoltys_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:09:12 ielo has quit 08:09:43 ageis_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:09:51 Hunger-- has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:11:02 adam3us has quit 08:11:02 Emcy has quit 08:11:03 matrixfox has quit 08:11:03 Hunger- has quit 08:11:04 ageis has quit 08:11:04 asoltys has quit 08:11:04 airbreather has quit 08:11:06 sl01 has quit 08:11:06 HM2 has quit 08:11:08 kaptah has quit 08:11:08 nsh has quit 08:11:09 maaku has quit 08:11:09 ebfull has quit 08:11:11 austinhill has quit 08:11:12 epscy has quit 08:11:12 mr_burdell has quit 08:11:53 airbreather has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:18:57 adam3us has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:24:41 TD has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:33:32 ens has quit 08:35:09 Manfred__ has quit 08:35:11 antephialtic has quit 08:38:19 Manfred_Karrer has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:43:24 jtimon has quit 08:44:41 wallet42 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:49:24 wallet42 has quit 09:01:09 sl01 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:01:09 HM has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:01:09 mr_burdell has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:01:09 epscy has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:01:09 austinhill has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:01:09 ebfull has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:01:09 maaku has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:01:09 kaptah has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:01:09 nshsplit has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:01:09 CodeShark has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:01:28 Alanius_ is now known as Alanius 09:05:29 shinybro_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:06:04 antephialtic has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:06:10 shinybro has quit 09:07:00 MoALTz has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:09:59 justanotheruser is now known as just[dead] 09:12:52 sl01 has quit 09:12:52 sl01 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:14:01 antephialtic has quit 09:14:37 the channel has a logo/mascot : http://imgur.com/vTN6Z3n 09:15:02 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:15:14 just need to make the beard red like gmaxwell's 09:15:56 oh wow. 09:16:08 e4xit has quit 09:16:12 thats going on the quiz webpage once we have one. (well if we do need to go that route) 09:17:09 quiz webpage? 09:18:39 maaku: we're going to try setting #bitcoin +m +z (so only ops can see unvoiced people talking) and run an op in there that if it sees someone non-voiced talking it directs them to a webpage that gives them mandatory cluestick material then remembers their hostmask can continues to +v them. 09:19:18 if in the future we have too much derp in here we could invoke the same magic, but have it be an actual quiz. :) 09:19:30 ah ok 09:20:09 s/run an op/run a op-bot/ 09:21:35 not my wizard mind you, it came from reddit : http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1zlypk/my_take_on_the_bitcoin_wizard/ 09:21:44 (in case you want to use it) 09:22:31 nshsplit is now known as nsh 09:38:36 does that wizard intentionally look like gmaxwell? 09:39:52 or does gmaxwell intentionally look like a wizard? 09:40:51 the wizard looks very feminine... 09:41:03 I don't have a hat like that. 09:41:29 now i know what to get you for christmas 09:41:58 * nsh kinds wants a wizard staff with an amber bitcoin sphere in its crux 09:42:04 when I was younger and before I had the facial hair (but did have the long hair) I had kind of a baby face, and old farts frequently confused me for a woman. But guys with long hair were less common in south florida. 09:42:04 and by kinda, i mean, a lot 09:42:39 gmaxwell: so you confirm thats an accurcate portrait of your younger years? 09:42:53 and tbh i thought the guy was holding dragonballs, not bitcoins when i first seen the wizard picture 09:42:58 perhaps? well I didn't have glasses then either. 09:43:01 Whats a dragonball? 09:43:13 im sure you could have borrowed your mums 09:43:22 annoying-voice cartoon artefact, presumably 09:43:32 dragonballs - its from dragonball z (a cartoon) 09:43:43 yeah, i watched it when i was a kid 09:43:57 if you collect 7, you can summon a dragon who grants your wish 09:44:58 there is a picture of me from when I was 15 on a silly userpage on wikipedia (as part of an old elaborate joke which has been lost in the mists of time): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:%E2%98%AE 09:46:41 you did have a kind of Farrah Fawcett hair thing going on there, no wonder the old Florida dudes took a liking :) 09:46:47 i love it 09:47:05 the hippy-sign username, it makes my life 09:47:31 separated at woodstock? http://www.troll.me/images/conspiracy-keanu/mind-blown.jpg 09:47:35 :P 09:49:10 gmaxwell: facial hair does seem to work! 09:50:28 roidster has quit 09:50:41 it's almost as if I look 20 years older now! 09:51:29 if mtgox's AML data was really leaked you'll get to see a passport photo not much newer that that one. 09:54:56 the (purported) hackers are unlikely to have a motive to publically leak the passport photos. they'd more likely either be sold to fraudsters or kept, depending on ethics 09:57:14 shesek has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:57:58 Ursium has quit 09:59:20 well I asked them to publish mine, which would prove they had something. 09:59:42 oh, interesting move 10:06:10 (mine is expired in any case) I doubt it contains anything that useful that someone else couldn't get. 10:09:36 * nsh nods 10:11:06 antephialtic has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:11:56 Persopolis has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:12:25 shesek has quit 10:29:47 antephialtic has quit 10:45:59 fanquake has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:07:23 TD_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:10:24 TD has quit 11:10:24 TD_ is now known as TD 11:13:33 cheap[er] provable computations for cases where you're doing set arithmetic: http://eprint.iacr.org/2014/160.pdf 11:14:48 looks at first glance like it could be integrated into scip as the constructions is special kinds of gates that work on sets natively, along with split/merge gates to convert to/from arithmetic gates 11:22:57 TD has quit 11:23:26 go1111111 has quit 11:25:49 antephialtic has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:30:48 antephialtic has quit 11:33:14 tetra has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:35:13 vdo has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:50:41 jhj has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:50:46 weex_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:52:09 avantgeek has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:53:39 jcorgan_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:54:36 sirius_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:55:54 jcorgan has quit 11:55:54 trn has quit 11:56:12 helo_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:56:14 helo has quit 11:56:14 zacm has quit 11:56:14 airbreather has quit 11:56:14 weex has quit 11:56:15 zacm has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:56:15 d34th has quit 11:56:51 sirius has quit 11:56:53 adam3us has quit 11:56:54 matrixfo1 has quit 11:56:55 matrixfox has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:57:13 d34th has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:57:25 adam3us has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:58:17 TD has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:13:20 fanquake has quit 12:56:11 Emcy has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:57:19 Emcy_ has quit 13:04:32 Emcy_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:05:27 realazthat has quit 13:07:29 Emcy has quit 13:13:33 realazthat has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:16:49 spinza has quit 13:16:50 spin123456 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:34:22 CodeShark has quit 13:34:37 CodeShark has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:35:45 RBRubicon has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:38:18 c0rw1n has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:41:40 zooko has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:42:44 <[\\\]> [\\\] has quit 13:46:28 airbreather has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:58:15 ielo has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:59:22 TD has quit 14:18:18 Emcy_ has quit 14:18:48 helo_ is now known as helo 14:33:17 Ursium has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:35:59 jrmithdobbs has quit 14:52:17 MoALTz has quit 14:52:24 RBRubicon has quit 15:00:52 nsh__ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:04:01 nsh has quit 15:04:13 RBRubicon has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:05:15 stonecoldpat has quit 15:06:01 TD has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:13:26 artifexd_ is now known as artifexd 15:14:38 TD has quit 15:15:13 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has quit 15:16:26 vdo has quit 15:17:02 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:18:29 stonecoldpat has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:21:45 nsh__ has quit 15:21:45 nsh__ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:21:58 nsh__ is now known as nsh 15:24:59 RBRubicon has quit 15:30:33 jrmithdobbs has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:30:34 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has quit 15:30:42 Persopolis has quit 15:32:24 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:34:14 avantgeek_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:34:54 realazthat has quit 15:36:12 avantgeek has quit 15:38:02 c0rw1n has quit 15:41:11 DougieBot5000 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:42:45 shesek has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:44:03 realazthat has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:44:03 realazthat has quit 15:44:03 realazthat has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:50:07 samesong has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:50:17 andytoshi: ping 15:50:45 jtimon has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:52:41 Luke-Jr: heya 15:52:46 i did not receive an email or anything.. 15:52:54 andytoshi: probably won't 15:52:59 coolio 15:53:02 andytoshi: when you planning to go? 15:53:10 i'm at school until at least 1:30, then i gotta head home then it's about an hour bike ride 15:53:16 >_< 15:53:24 so i'll be there by 4 tonight, but earlier tomorrow 15:53:45 like, 1 or so 15:56:45 TD has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:56:52 oh, i see your q on #bitcoin, sorry, i have no ride for you :) 15:57:07 :P 15:57:39 antephialtic has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:00:28 TD_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:01:21 TD has quit 16:01:22 TD_ is now known as TD 16:03:59 Guest61739 is now known as amiller 16:04:01 amiller has quit 16:04:02 amiller has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:04:18 iddo has quit 16:05:16 TD has quit 16:05:53 iddo has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:08:51 TD has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:15:58 jtimon has quit 16:18:07 zooko has quit 16:18:18 avantgeek has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:19:13 avantgeek_ has quit 16:23:25 avantgeek has quit 16:29:55 jtimon has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:42:52 c0rw1n has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:48:14 wallet42 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:51:11 Ksipax has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:54:29 c0rw1n has quit 16:55:33 c0rw1n has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:02:37 antephialtic has quit 17:08:45 wallet42 has quit 17:12:07 wallet42 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:17:23 rdymac has quit 17:17:57 rdymac has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:24:54 Dizzle has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:45:11 wallet42 has quit 17:46:47 wallet42 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:53:09 rdymac has quit 17:54:28 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has quit 17:55:51 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:55:57 rdymac has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:59:47 Manfred_Karrer has quit 18:07:07 Manfred_Karrer has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:09:48 eristisk has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:14:28 spinza has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:17:44 spin123456 has quit 18:22:23 spinza has quit 18:22:24 spin123456 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:43:52 Ksipax has quit 18:46:19 wallet42 has quit 18:56:29 gmaxwell are you following the discussion about "scripting 2.0" in the concatenative mailing list? Do you mind if I copy you to my next post in case I'm saying something stupid you would like to correct? 19:08:37 ens has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:10:04 prepost has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:10:24 postpre has quit 19:11:52 Dizzle has quit 19:16:36 wallet42 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:17:01 MoALTz has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:19:37 spin123456 has quit 19:22:06 samesong has quit 19:22:36 samesong has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:22:54 spinza has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:22:56 samesong has quit 19:28:29 spinza has quit 19:28:30 spin123456 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:32:44 samesong has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:33:41 spin123456 has quit 19:35:46 samesong has quit 19:35:51 spinza has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:36:15 samesong has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:36:30 antephialtic has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:38:23 e4xit has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:38:53 go1111111 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:45:08 Dizzle has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:47:13 Ksipax has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:48:14 samesong has quit 19:49:18 when it is said that snarks can prove (compactly) that a given program was run on given inputs, some of which maybe hidden; am i right in presuming the verifier needs all the inputs to verify the proof. (either in hidden aka committed form or clear text form.) 19:49:55 (as well as the moderately large public param which relates to the program) 19:52:25 spinza has quit 19:52:29 if the verifier needed hidden inputs, then how would that be different from given inputs? 19:56:13 samesong has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:56:38 adam3us: i'm interested in the stuff you are talking about, what kind of thing are you building / researching? 19:57:42 c0rw1n has quit 20:03:11 spinza has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:04:12 Ksipax has quit 20:04:36 adam3us: the verfier needs only the public inputs. (which also means you can do a neat compression to make the public inputs small: hash them, provide their real value as a non-public input) 20:05:12 (the reason you'd want to make them small is that the verifier has linear performance in the size of the public inputs you're giving to it) 20:05:40 tromp_: they aren't needed but if they were needed they could be encrypted, which is what adam was thinking. 20:09:23 eristisk has quit 20:10:31 <[\\\]> [\\\] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:10:34 the hardest case is the negative case, where there are no inputs that satisfy the program. obviously. 20:10:51 spinza has quit 20:10:52 spin123456 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:12:53 one of these days i hope to read all 53 pages of the SNARK paper 20:16:01 spin123456 has quit 20:18:43 spinza has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:19:12 just[dead] is now known as justanotheruser 20:33:29 spinza has quit 20:33:33 spinza has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:36:48 ielo has quit 20:44:50 spinza has quit 20:44:51 spin123456 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:48:08 antephialtic has quit 20:48:58 spin123456 has quit 20:50:37 Krellan_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:51:47 spinza has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:56:02 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has quit 21:09:16 justanotheruser is now known as just[dead] 21:20:36 nsh__ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:20:36 nsh__ has quit 21:20:36 nsh__ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:20:57 nsh has quit 21:21:07 nsh__ is now known as nsh 21:22:21 gmaxwell: dont u need at least a commitment to the hidden values in aggregate (eg the hash of them, or a merkle root hash)? 21:23:26 gmaxwell: i mean doesnt the verifier need a commitment to the hash of the hidden values (if not individuall, in total) in a kind of signature sense of what is being proven vs? 21:24:00 c0rw1n has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:24:31 adam3us: maybe. Depends on your application. If you want some kind of commitment to the hidden data, then you can include one in the public inputs and the program can verify the agreement between the commitment and the non-determinstic (secret) inputs. 21:24:53 If you don't really care what the secret data is, only that it exists and satisfies the rules— then you don't. 21:25:35 "I know a solution to this sodoku puzzle" ... doesn't require I tell you anything more about the the solution I know. 21:26:22 gmaxwell: well i guess the prover has to know a solution, in order to make the proof (not just that a solution exists) 21:27:04 daemonlair has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:27:18 nsh_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:27:58 nsh_ has quit 21:27:59 nsh_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:28:08 nsh has quit 21:28:10 nsh_ is now known as nsh 21:28:16 gmaxwell: so the motivation to put a commitment to the hidden inputs in the public inputs would be external to the scheme... eg you want to selectively disclose and provably tie to the proof specific inputs (which ones to disclose decided later) 21:29:32 Right, there are plenty of cases where you need to do that... e.g. if you use a SNARK to achieve a publically verifyable hash based signature, for example. ... you need your public key (hash of the secret) to be a public input in order to know who is signing. :) 21:32:42 making a proof of an input validating a program without revealing the input can also be done by generating an instance of the program in 3sat, then expressing that as a graph where the solution is a hamiltonian path through the input and generating an isomorphism of that graph, commiting to it and then either showing the isomorphism between the original and the new graph or the cycle 21:32:43 in the new graph on request. 21:34:55 ens: ... yes? in any case: such proofs are not succinct, in that they are typically quadratic (and a large constant factor) in the size of the program. 21:36:25 maybe i'm just butting it on this without knowing the context. i'll step back. 21:37:47 gmaxwell: so talking with maaku if the program becomes complex so that the public verification key is impractically large is it the case that most of the key is not involved in individual proofs, then maybe the verifier can store only a merkle root committing to the verification key bits and then a proof can be accompanied by the bits and merkle paths to prove it. 21:40:17 adam3us: for GGPR12 the verification keys are small. (like a dozen group elements) effectively all the succinct systems (ones with sublinear proofs and sublinear verification time) can be seen as effectively working work by recursively performing the verification in the prover. ... so your verification key is really only verifying the last step, and its turtles all the way down after that. 21:41:34 * maaku checks the paper and sees that he misremembered 21:44:37 oakpacific has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:48:10 the proving keys OTOH become huge. 21:49:38 adam3us has quit 21:51:31 rdymac has quit 21:52:27 rdymac has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:04:49 mr_burdell has quit 22:09:35 mr_burdell has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:27:06 eristisk has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:29:29 oakpacific has quit 22:31:52 nomailing has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:32:51 Dizzle has quit 22:50:46 adam3us has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:57:15 antephialtic has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:01:06 did yall see the ars tech thread on alt coins 23:02:17 nomailing has quit 23:03:13 daemonlair has quit 23:09:03 poggy: is it relevant? 23:09:18 no just funny 23:14:10 MoALTz has quit 23:34:11 rdymac has quit 23:34:44 rdymac has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:38:41 c0rw1n has quit 23:39:04 c0rw1n has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:45:41 jcorgan_ has left #bitcoin-wizards