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Without putting anything in to the blockchain, is there anyway to utilise the hashing power of the network to achieve that? 12:19:36 copumpkin has quit 12:20:07 The idea would be, the bitcoin network having more hashing power than most self-funded crackers, the secret would become known to a broad audience all at once, essentially equal access 12:21:57 wallet42 has quit 12:22:15 just a thought i had doing some dishes 12:22:41 ttttetra has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:29:53 I guess you encrypt it using a randomly generated password of a set length/difficulty for the algorithm chosen to encrypt it, so that it will intersect with predicted computing power at a certain point in time... 12:30:23 wallet42 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:30:46 right, but you can't actually use the computing power of the network for arbitrary sha256 hashing 12:31:39 i don't think its possible myself 12:32:29 oh i just thought you meant that "at time 'x' in the future, 'someone' will have a computer powerful enough to brute force encryption of 'y' difficulty" 12:32:48 nah that would be easy 12:32:48 it sounds like you would need an alt coin 12:33:46 there are coins which search for prime numbers and proteins and such 12:36:20 right, but that defeats the point ;) you'd have to get everyone using it and there's no incentive except the public good. the idea was an ancillary use to the existing cpu cycles being burned 12:36:33 I can't see how the current pow can be useful though 12:40:02 c0rw1n has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:43:50 edulix is now known as eduli 12:43:51 eduli is now known as edulix 12:49:58 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:58:22 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has quit 12:58:43 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:16:58 grau has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:19:46 grau has quit 13:32:25 cpacia has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:47:05 orperelman has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:49:11 oooooo_m has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:05:36 gavinandresen has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:06:54 shinybro has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:07:09 Persopolis has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:09:30 rdymac has quit 14:10:32 rdymac has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:11:37 shinybro has quit 14:25:52 roidster has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:29:44 austinhill has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:37:24 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has quit 14:39:21 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:41:09 rdymac has quit 14:44:32 rdymac has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:00:36 jtimon has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:23:15 nick43 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:28:13 situation has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:29:05 tacotime_ is now known as tt_away 15:31:50 adam3us has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:36:53 nick43 has quit 15:38:56 Ksipax has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:45:24 grau has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:57:58 MoALTz has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:09:09 Participating nodes would sample RF noise on some agreed band(s) being 16:09:09 emitted by the Sun and continually record it, with their sampling clock 16:09:09 being driven by their stable local oscillator. Nodes would then publish 16:09:09 timestamped recent fragments of this signal. 16:09:37 would this require nodes to know precisely their own postion on the surface of the earth 16:10:25 cos a node at midday is about an earth radius closer to the sun asd one at dawn or dusk 16:12:46 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has quit 16:13:09 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:13:44 Ksipax has quit 16:31:37 shesek has quit 16:32:10 cpacia has quit 16:33:54 Ursium has quit 16:35:06 coryfields is now known as cfields 16:35:25 shesek has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:50:28 Persopolis has quit 16:52:37 Ursium has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:55:25 shesek has quit 16:59:24 Emcy_: plus atmospheric effects which may have larger effects 17:00:06 i dont think even gps accounts for that 17:00:27 HM: gmaxwell has explored that idea of having (breaking) timelock encryption as the proof of work 17:01:28 Emcy_: good ones do, as it is a significant enough source of noise 17:02:17 although the situation is a little different there as there are multiple sources at different vectors 17:02:59 hrm can't seem to find a reference for the speed of light in atmosphere 17:03:08 what exactly radio emissions does the sun give off that is good as a reference signal any way 17:03:10 obviously would depend on altitude too 17:03:32 Emcy_: random EM noise in just about every spectrum 17:03:41 yeah but its random 17:04:06 that's exactly the point... 17:04:07 otherwise it could be predicted 17:04:16 the point is to provide a truly random oracle/beacon 17:04:31 oh yeah 17:04:32 for which you can get global consensus 17:05:05 i wonder is the albedo of the moon is good enough in those spectrums to work at night too 17:05:31 so besides accurate time consensus, you could do things like, say, have a source of randomness available to smart contracts 17:06:05 yeah, it is, but that's why you have to be careful about choosing the right spectra 17:07:06 i remember seeing a poster at one of the lunar science conferences about the amzing reflection properties of the moon in various spectra 17:07:12 wish i had a cite for it right now :( 17:08:29 but of course there are times neither the moon nor the sun are available 17:08:58 cant the NSa just rock up and beam a few kw at your computer and fuck this scheme up 17:09:06 then you can use any large metallic satellite (ISS would be great, or some of the older GEO birds) 17:09:47 well they can rocl up and shoot you i suppose so meh. 17:20:16 wallet42 has quit 17:40:18 antephialtic has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:44:12 licnep_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:49:49 Persopolis has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:50:29 eristisk has quit 17:59:00 zooko has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:07:04 licnep_ is now known as licnep 18:31:37 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has quit 18:33:29 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:39:36 antephialtic has quit 18:51:08 antephialtic has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:19:52 antephia_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:20:17 antephialtic has quit 19:30:01 zooko has quit 19:31:24 "If you're around, would you have any idea why Zeitcoin would be stuck at block 500 for the entire network?" < (I bet half of you instantly make the same guess I made) 19:34:57 antephia_ has quit 19:42:06 grau has quit 19:44:09 block reward so high that something overflowed? 19:45:01 cpacia has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:45:01 block 500... that sounds like the getblocks limit 19:45:09 * michagogo|cloud checks checkpoints.cpp 19:45:30 nah 19:45:53 cause no one bothers to mine it 19:46:04 yea, I was assuming they forked code with a checkpoint at 500. 19:46:21 so michagogo|cloud gets the point for the same guess as me. (Dunno what their actual issue was) 19:46:22 oh :P much simpler 19:46:37 well, bitcoin doesn't have a checkpoint at 500 19:46:46 but maybe they forked something else 19:46:51 they use scrypt, probably they forked doge or osmething 19:46:51 sipa: Yeah, hence 21:45:30 nah 19:46:53 Ah, maybe 19:47:09 Do any other coins have a checkpoint at 500? o_O 19:47:41 testnet does IIRC. 19:47:55 oh these guys forked ppcoin 19:48:08 so actually their issue is probably that they aren't broadcasting checkpoints. 19:48:33 Uh, broadcasting checkpoints? 19:48:38 Wtf? 19:48:48 yep. exactly. hurray for ppcoin. 19:49:04 consider it evolution in action 19:49:07 ...wait, what? 19:49:09 Seriously? 19:49:19 michagogo|cloud: they hijacked the alert mechenism so that the developer has a key to broadcast checkpoints. Seriously. Most of the users don't even know it. 19:49:19 They... broadcast checkpoints? 19:49:25 How does that work? 19:49:30 uh. 19:49:30 The system stops working if the developer stops for >1 week. 19:49:41 lol 19:49:57 http://itcafe.hu/dl/upc/2014-01/452339_95209a691a593b232722112a5fff265c.png 19:50:44 hurray for decentralozation 19:50:59 michagogo|cloud: To be fair there are at least some limitations on it, the a node won't take a replacement at or below a height it already has one. So they can't conduct free reorgs, only one shot reorgs, and 'only' can reorg a week of blocks — or they can forever split the network. 19:51:16 (I am obviously not arguing that it isn't loltastic horrible) 19:51:19 zeit is hilarious, 30 second blocks and difficulty retargets every blocks, block reward is 1mil 19:51:36 Worse, when you criticize peercoin's stuff here you get piled on by people saying bitcoin has the same thing. :( 19:51:45 heh 19:52:01 Are people really that dumb? 19:52:05 Yes. 19:52:07 why would someone set retarget to every block 19:52:20 Emcy_: ikr 19:52:24 http://i.imgur.com/uyVdb3w.jpg 19:52:25 same thin meaning the developer provided checkpoints? 19:52:33 Emcy_: because they like isolation attacks? and weird incentives to lie about the time? 19:52:36 pigeons: I think so, yeah 19:52:57 pigeons: who knows what they _mean_, but they dismiss this as being a criticial flaw. 19:52:57 why do people fork coins at look at its fundamental parameters and just say "yeah lets just make all this faster" 19:53:12 because they haven't read alts.pdf 19:53:15 Emcy_: shed painting. 19:53:17 and because alts.pdf is not done :( 19:53:32 shed painting? 19:54:00 Emcy_: http://bikeshed.com/ 19:55:02 bikeshed is a metaphor for....software development 19:55:05 nerds 19:55:45 it's not just software development, it arises everywhere in engineering and design. People nitpitch the minutia because its the minutia they (think they) understand. 19:55:52 arguing at length about minor seemingly cosmetic details which have no basis in effectively pushing the state of the software forward, but mean an irrational lot to the people arguing about them. 19:55:58 oh there was something about bikesheds on tha tmaximum tinfoil video with the swedish guy 19:55:59 i remember 19:56:47 most people touching these altcoins have nary an idea how this stuff works, but some of these parameters like block times are figures users are all familar with and understand at least one effect of. 19:56:56 it's weird here, it's not a normal bikeshed because they somehow do a -lot- of damage with these "trivial" changes 19:57:10 midnightmagic why not jsut say politics. That word is still enough of a derogatory term to carry the meaning 19:57:17 like if you said, "i want to paint the shed with radium so that it'll glow" 19:58:07 heh 19:58:10 give N people X amount of time to decide Y 19:58:27 andytoshi: well they mistake this stuff as color which has no other effects, but by paiting the shed black it gets too hot and the equipment inside all fails. The shed had to be white or near white for non-aesthetic engineering reasons. 19:58:30 independent of N and Y, they will use X time to discuss 19:59:14 andytoshi most of these alts have no intention of lasting a decent amount of time. Nakamoto chain currencies can be really, really pyramidy in the wrong hands 19:59:18 Asa9 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:59:56 Asa9 has quit 20:00:11 it is rather telling that all of them "cash out" by getting the coin adopted on a crypto exchange and then trading with a greater fool for bitcoin 20:00:31 gmaxwell we must calculate the exact shade of white to maintain an optimal operating temerature for the quipment inside a maximal amount of the time 20:00:43 nsh_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:00:51 ill look up solar forecasts for the next ten years, you look up manufacturer infomation 20:02:03 antephialtic has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:02:18 nsh has quit 20:18:09 gmaxwell: since they retarget difficulty every block, could someone with a lot of hashpower essentially freeze the network by mining for a few blocks, then stopping, so the difficulty was left so high that the network would take way too long to mine a block without them? (regarding your previous question about Zeitcoin) 20:19:18 antephialtic: presumably they have a maximum change per block, if so that also means there is a nasty non-linearity in their difficulty change rules where you can earn more by mining in bursts (and riding against the rail). 20:19:34 MoALTz_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:19:39 (bitcoin has such a non-linearity, but it's do hard to hit— and never been hit on the network— that it doesn't matter) 20:20:01 s/do/so/ 20:20:40 yeah, if you had enough hashpower to do it with bitcoin, you probably would have enough to just do some double spends or selfish mine anyway 20:22:27 MoALTz has quit 20:22:39 since it starts getting into miner incentives stuff it's hard to analyize, so I dunno how bad it really is... still— something I'd avoid. 20:31:32 cpacia has quit 20:33:00 licnep has quit 20:35:24 nsh_ has quit 20:35:25 nsh_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:35:26 nsh_ is now known as nsh 20:47:21 Persopolis has quit 20:51:03 shesek has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:11:12 I'm finally getting Stefan brands blind signature scheme 21:11:22 i also rediscovered the page that i first read it on 21:11:48 which is nice 21:11:49 http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://www.orlingrabbe.com/stefbrdc.htm&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=sb&gws_rd=cr&ei=SvcRU8T2F6m62AWZ8YGgBA 21:12:21 It's taken me ages to boil down the concept 21:12:41 (rather than just follow the algebra, which isn't enlightening) 21:16:20 can you synopsise? 21:16:30 grau has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:17:30 not yet ;) 21:18:21 ehh.. I hate to ask here, but is there a summary document somewhere which describes in salient, short points all altcoins that have been analyzed by.. well anybody reputable anyway that can be used as a reference somewhere? 21:21:22 no, but i'm sure there's something from the 18th century about the merits of buying tinctures and cure-alls from people in three-dollar suits on the back of touring wagons 21:21:32 that might be still appropriate 21:23:43 nsh, the critical point seems to be using a DSA like construct to prove the result of a exponentiation is as promised 21:23:52 rdymac_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:24:14 rdymac has quit 21:24:14 rdymac_ is now known as rdymac 21:24:15 HM, hmm, thanks. will investigate :) 21:24:39 oh I want to join alt questions, is proof of stake actually proven to work? assuming most coins are in hands of rational actors that don't want to destroy the currency but are optimizing for personal profit? because I still don't know answer to that 21:24:39 nsh, so the bank has a secret for the withdrawal, w, and a secret key x. It returns xM and wM where M is an EC point (well it would be in EC terms) 21:24:50 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has quit 21:25:09 normally you can't prove anything about those values 21:25:29 right, a second spend fixes the line equation revealing the secret 21:25:41 but you combine them algebraicly and challenge the bank to prove it did it correctly 21:26:10 after more blinding you get a shadow line with an intercept the bank can't know 21:26:14 "payment information may be efficiently stored (17 bytes per payment);" that seems very optimistic in retrospect 21:26:47 hmm yeah tis 21:26:50 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:27:05 I think you need at least 64 bytes and thensome 21:28:41 grau has quit 21:32:34 Luke-Jr has quit 21:41:20 comboy: afaik, (pure) proof of stake cannot work, and not because of economic reasons 21:42:47 With PoS, AIUI, a rational miner will mine every possible fork 21:44:03 The reason PoW works is that the miners are irreversibly expending valuable resources mining, so they had better put that effort into what they believe to be the most likely chain to survive 21:44:41 Luke-Jr has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:47:11 nsh has quit 21:47:22 comboy: there's something almost, but not quite, proof-of-stake that I've taken to calling proof-of-internal-sacrifice, but it places very high and probably unrealistic demands on the flood-fill network required to broadcast new information about the state of consensus 21:50:48 copumpkin has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:51:09 lol 21:51:28 internal sacrifice sounds pretty hardcore 21:52:35 nsh has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:52:36 nsh has quit 21:52:36 nsh has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:59:59 rdymac has quit 22:00:12 sipa: it's hard for me to distinguish technical from economic reasons since it all seems to be about incentives, but you mean that even if majority of owners are not selfish it cannot work? 22:00:33 rdymac has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:00:56 comboy: well, up to a certain point, economics are always involved 22:01:21 comboy: but there is no reason why any PoS miner wouldn't extend every fork he has ever seen, as it costs just as much as mining on one chain 22:01:41 which means no convergence 22:04:44 long story short we cannot avoid work :/ 22:05:21 petertodd: is there something to read about it? 22:06:25 .wik IMT international 22:06:30 (oops, wrong chan) 22:10:08 HM: for the love of god, please come up with a better name for it for me 22:10:46 in PoS, stake blocks must still meet a hash target. but this target is per unit coin age, so the more stake you have the easier it is to meet the target 22:10:48 comboy: sigh, not yet, it's on my mythical "I need to write a biook" todo list 22:10:59 petertodd, would if i could. no idea what you're talking about 22:11:08 (holy crap this airport wifi sucks) 22:11:32 HM: heh, so, proof-of-sacrifice means proving you sacrificed some digital asset, say, spending some bitcoins to an unspendable output 22:12:03 nsh, the 17 bytes might not be that unrealistic after all. i just discovered 3 of 4 EC points are redundant because you can regenerate them from the other (you just need to vertify the challenge hash) 22:12:12 if you make the unit hash target small (hard) enough, then it will be very hard for stake holders to work on many parallel chains 22:12:20 hmm 22:12:23 proof-of-internal-sacrifice means the thing you sacrificed was a digital asset within the system itself, which means for it to be a true sacrifice the consensus of the system in the long run must include the fact you made that sacrifice - tricky! 22:12:39 petertodd, the mtgox method? :P 22:12:48 proof of stupidity 22:13:19 proof of karpeles tunnel syndrome 22:14:21 proof of pauperism 22:15:06 proof of philanthropy? 22:15:26 because discarding coins would make everyone elses worth more in real terms? :S 22:15:49 no idea 22:17:22 midnightmagic: this is the plan for alts.pdf eventually. i was hoping some people more familiar with the history would contribute 22:17:57 HM: problem if, mtgox doesn't have any proof... 22:18:02 petertodd: I mean for bootstrappnig it seems reasonable to do this proof-of-making-gods-happy, but what do you mean about this "places very high and probably unrealistic demands on the flood-fill network required to broadcast new information about the state of consensus"? 22:18:13 go1111111 has quit 22:18:53 keeps ISPs happy perhaps, not sure about Zeus 22:19:07 comboy: well, basically since the sacrifice only happens if it gets incorporated into the consensus, you can play games by jamming the jam-free flood-fill network that all crypto-consensus schemes need to function 22:20:03 as it is, these schemes - bitcoin included - are really trying to achieve proof-of-publication, and they do that by bootstrapping on top of a really shitty proof-of-publication scheme - just broadcasting some data on a flood-fill network 22:20:04 petertodd: but is this somehow different than what's present in PoW networks? 22:20:23 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has quit 22:20:32 comboy: yes, because in pow you've sacrificed something valuable - energy - even if no-one ever hears about it 22:21:05 *negentropy 22:21:11 (you can't sacrifice energy :) 22:21:22 as far as we know 22:21:28 * nsh nods 22:21:32 nsh: !@#$ pedants 22:21:36 hehe 22:21:38 * nsh smiles 22:22:46 i'm in a position where pedantry is a survival skill, and worthy of practice :) 22:22:53 petertodd, sipa, isn't the best idea to use a one-time-use-only signature, such that once you attempt to spend a coin on one block, if you attempt to publish a second one voting for a different block, you lose the coin altogether? 22:23:32 amiller: that's exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about - point is it depends on a jam free network for someone to find out about that other spend attempt 22:23:42 amiller: that's a seriously non-trivial requirement 22:24:10 i kinda feel like all the other good stuff relies on this jam free network too 22:24:10 what does 'jam' mean, technically-speaking? 22:24:28 50% fruit, 50% sugar, boil it down 22:24:31 (it's slang for sex in glasgow. The More You Know (tm)) 22:24:44 once you pass a message to one member of the network 22:24:48 amiller: yes it does, hence why I keep saying the point of bitcoin is to take a shitty jam-free-network/proof-of-publication system and make it strong 22:24:48 absolutely everyone hears about it in short order 22:25:09 nsh: jam == censor 22:25:15 ah, gotcha 22:25:32 or equivalently, if you pass one half of an interesting transaction to one person on the network, and the other half to any other person on the network, then the two halves will find each other and make it onto the blockchain 22:25:39 isn't jamming problem solved in good part if everybody is using tor? I mean with some reasonable amount of connections it's really hard to do something 22:25:42 so any viable incentive system must strongly discourage selective gossip... 22:26:00 nsh: yup 22:26:06 * nsh nods 22:26:08 comboy: no! not at all! tor makes it worse 22:26:09 the significance of the way i explain it is that the two halves of a transaction aren't necessarily themselves significant enough to get included in the public log 22:26:23 it's only when they come together somehow that it's worth publishing 22:26:36 comboy: fortunately bitcoin is so strong that tor doesn't do it any harm, but lesser systems... ugh 22:26:38 for example an "attempted green-address double spend" 22:26:51 right now if someone attempts to double spend, the double spends are forgotten 22:27:08 but if someone attempts to double spend a green address, it's Big Fucking News and sohuld probably trigger other things like insuarnce payouts 22:27:48 amiller: if you puruse chat logs from a year ago you'll notice how I was talking about proof-of-publication in everything but name w/ fidelity bonded banking for that kind of reason 22:28:02