00:00:53 gmaxwell: http://magicrulesunpaa6.onion/rich_people_and_ethics_bib.txt I don't think it's an availability bias or a researcher shelving bias, as a badly-written review of Piff's work asserted. 00:02:21 justanotheruser is now known as just[dead] 00:03:11 antephialtic has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:03:18 c0rw1n has quit 00:11:19 antephialtic has quit 00:13:41 just[dead] is now known as justanotheruser 00:18:43 DougieBot5000 has quit 00:31:43 c0rw1n has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:32:41 <[\\\]> [\\\] has quit 00:33:01 justanotheruser is now known as just[dead] 00:38:06 Hunger-- has quit 00:42:01 just[dead] has quit 00:43:21 grau has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:44:08 eristisk has quit 00:46:42 jron has quit 00:46:52 realazthat has quit 00:47:03 michagogo|cloud has quit 00:47:03 rs0 has quit 00:47:04 rs0 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:47:07 jron_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:47:13 gribble has quit 00:47:41 Hunger- has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:49:13 CodeShar_ has joined 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#bitcoin-wizards 02:16:35 BCB has left #bitcoin-wizards 02:20:11 roidster has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:35:19 antephialtic has quit 03:02:33 Krellan_ has quit 03:05:05 grau has quit 03:07:59 zzyzx has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:08:54 http://torrentfreak.com/bitcoin-donations-now-integrated-into-bittorrent-client-140227/ seems cool 03:09:58 it seems like it just opens bitpay or something 03:10:14 would have been nicer if they had done somthing with bitcoinj instead 03:11:26 oh no it just creates a bitcoin URI QR and wants you to scan it with your phone 03:11:39 roidster has quit 03:12:40 tromp__ has quit 03:13:13 justanotheruser has quit 03:13:14 justanotheruser has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:14:56 roidster has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:17:33 lol 03:17:55 go1111111 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:18:15 zzyzx has quit 03:20:48 tromp has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:31:12 wallet42 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:32:25 so its not really integrated? 03:33:06 wallet42 has quit 03:35:00 DBordello has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:38:12 shinybro_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:38:42 qwertyoruiop has quit 03:45:51 antephialtic has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:47:17 bebopzzz has quit 03:50:00 antephialtic has quit 03:51:53 https://people.xiph.org/~greg/decentralized-time.txt 03:58:03 can the bitcoin keys be used for encryption as well as signing messages, theoretically? 03:58:57 I just watched Kevin Greene's presentation on BIP 70 03:59:43 am thinking it can easily be modified to use bitcoin public keys to avoid SSL 04:00:56 I hope so, I'm using it for my ssh sessions :| 04:01:24 what? 04:01:30 Or is that just for signin? 04:01:47 you are using bitcoin keys to auth for ssh? 04:02:16 I never heard of that heh 04:02:17 No, you can use ecdsa keys as opposed to rsa keys though. 04:03:26 ah thats what you meant 04:03:28 yeah sure 04:03:41 I assume you can, I just want to know if there is any reason not to 04:06:48 go1111111 has quit 04:08:08 shinybro_ has quit 04:09:04 I think you use ECDH to share a symmetric cipher... but that's not exactly what you're looking for. 04:09:13 *symmetric cipher key 04:09:39 I thought you could, but apparently I'm mistaken (unless no one else corrects me). 04:10:18 shinybro_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:13:15 Yeah, that's what bitmessage uses https://bitmessage.org/wiki/Encryption 04:14:50 This thread gives an explanation, but I don't know if it's the correct one; https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=238714.msg2528883#msg2528883 04:16:50 bitcoin-wizards seems to be the place where i fill in all these gaps in my knowledge, heh. 04:18:18 >nakamoto chain 04:18:26 wow that seems obvious now 04:19:42 So when ssh is using ECDSA for auth and encryption, it's actually using ECDH for AES key exchange and ECDSA for signing the auth? 04:20:00 shinybro_ has quit 04:23:08 Apparently http://www.snailbook.com/docs/rfc5656.txt 04:24:52 tromp has quit 04:36:25 tromp has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:36:51 spinza has quit 04:36:52 spin123456 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:41:32 realz has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:41:35 realz has quit 04:41:35 realz has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:42:08 tromp__ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:42:43 roidster has quit 04:42:43 realazthat has quit 04:43:29 tromp has quit 04:44:36 tacotime: ah interesting 04:49:54 realz has quit 04:51:18 realz has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:51:39 roidster has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:55:24 Looks like NDCoin is now trying to do the same thing as Ethereum 04:55:46 https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3133557/Bitcoin/Introducing%20NDcoin.pdf 04:56:09 And promising SCIP moon magic to make useful decentralized computing for proof of work 04:58:16 MoALTz__ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:00:15 shinybro_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:00:49 go1111111 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:00:53 UukGoblin has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:01:20 roconnor_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:01:39 spinza has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:02:05 tromp__ has quit 05:02:40 tromp has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:02:56 realazthat has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:02:57 realz has quit 05:03:00 roasbeef_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:03:08 airbreather_1 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:04:16 gah 05:04:18 did I split 05:04:20 tacotime: SCIP can be used to make almost *anything* a PoW algorithm 05:04:56 right. i'm waiting to see how zerocash fares first with it, though. 05:05:05 parameter sizes are still kind of daunting. 05:06:14 yeah, I am not sure how useful it would actually make a network 05:06:32 roasbeef has quit 05:06:32 sl01_ has quit 05:06:34 since, it would be wasting some constant at a minimum 05:06:37 Guest27571 has quit 05:06:56 so a network that wastes 10X resources to make 1X resource useful 05:06:58 it is useful 05:07:02 tromp has quit 05:07:05 it's kind of been the cryptobuzzword as of late :P 05:07:10 but really, is that gonna save the planet 05:07:14 but it is cool 05:07:20 there are other uses aside from PoW 05:07:26 it is a very powerful concept 05:07:46 yeah 05:07:46 you can use other computers to prove things for you 05:08:43 HM has quit 05:09:56 ttttetra has quit 05:10:13 sl01 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:10:22 HM has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:11:01 spin123456 has quit 05:11:01 MoALTz_ has quit 05:11:03 roconnor has quit 05:11:03 airbreather has quit 05:13:30 zzyzx has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:14:07 roasbeef has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:15:23 spinza has quit 05:15:23 MoALTz__ has quit 05:15:28 roidster has quit 05:15:29 roasbeef_ has quit 05:15:33 MoALTz_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:17:31 spinza has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:27:52 sl01 has quit 05:28:01 HM has quit 05:28:36 HM has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:31:33 sl01 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:35:44 c0rw1n has quit 05:35:50 tromp has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:43:08 austinhill has quit 05:44:10 tromp has quit 05:46:41 austinhill has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:48:54 sl01 has quit 05:50:06 HM has quit 05:50:22 HM has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:52:56 sl01 has joined 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has quit 07:51:28 adam3us has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:51:59 MoALTz__ has quit 07:56:25 adam3us has quit 07:59:40 shinybro has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:05:11 tromp has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:09:29 tromp has quit 08:09:40 wallet42 has quit 08:10:20 wallet42 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:11:25 shinybro has quit 08:21:52 realazthat: bitcoin public keys are worthless for that, not because of encryption or whatever, bip 70 doesn't need encryption or ssl. it uses x509 certs for human identity, because nothing else exists. 08:23:30 realazthat: I don't agree that "SCIP can be used to make almost *anything* a PoW algorithm" in fact, PCP only makes claims of the soundness of the proof not non-optimization and nothing else is anything better. 08:23:50 In theory— if the statement is true you can produce a passing proof without doing any work at all 08:24:13 ? 08:24:24 (not that anyone knows how to do that generally since it would prove P=NP if it really was general) 08:24:28 I think I agree with him about that maybe 08:25:01 SCIP proves you did the work 08:25:03 no? 08:25:18 shinybro has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:25:57 no. It doesn't it proves the statement is true. 08:26:26 what statement? 08:26:58 CodeShar_ has quit 08:27:22 you have some thing that you're computing and you're proving for these inputs you got these outputs, for example. You can use a snark to prove that the outputs are the true outputs for the inputs... but they is no promise you did 'the work'. 08:28:00 maybe in practice no one currently knows how to optimize something under any particular zk-snark system, but there is no promise you cannot. 08:28:16 well, doesn't that apply to SHA2 as well? 08:29:25 if the hash is sound you only get luck, were .. say for example you had a scip over a progrm that just made the output equal the input and had a busy loop in it. It seems very likely to me that you can optimize out actually computing the busy loop. 08:29:57 sure 08:30:38 but I took it to mean, the POW would be a fixed algorithm, and SCIP would only be used to prove that you got the right result (and implicitly, used the algorithm) 08:30:40 this applies to less trivial examples too. how less trival who knows. Probably whole advancements in approximation theory are waiting in this space. 08:31:10 okay sure, to make validation cheap.... but normally we want pow to not be trapdoored or overly optimizable. 08:31:12 CodeShark has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:31:21 e.g. someone finds an optimization to make it 100x faster... thats bad. 08:31:33 some people thought you could use scip to prove that you didn't optimize, but thats not so. 08:31:44 (or at least no guarenteed) 08:36:32 shinybro has quit 08:41:45 zooko has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:42:54 realazthat: 10x? more like 1000x. :P 08:47:37 grau has quit 08:48:13 grau has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:50:54 grau has quit 08:51:25 grau has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:56:05 antephialtic has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:57:34 stonecoldpat has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:00:30 antephialtic has quit 09:16:05 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:20:09 grau has quit 09:20:14 orperelman has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:20:35 grau has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:28:18 vdo has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:29:26 <[\\\]> [\\\] has quit 09:34:06 TD has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:35:39 orperelman has quit 09:43:54 zooko has quit 09:46:25 shinybro has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:46:56 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has quit 09:56:49 shinybro has quit 09:57:11 DoogieHouser has left #bitcoin-wizards 09:57:18 orperelman has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:01:23 roconnor__ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:03:03 Persopolis has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:04:32 roconnor_ has quit 10:09:49 for those of you at dinner tonight, thanks - whay a great conversation 10:10:14 what 10:11:37 jrmithdobbs has quit 10:14:09 jrmithdobbs has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:35:59 ah is that why its so quiet here today? they are all hungover? 10:36:54 fanquake has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:41:40 Hopefully no worse for the wear 10:44:16 Ursium has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:51:59 orperelman has quit 10:55:40 orperelman has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:57:27 antephialtic has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:14:02 antephialtic has quit 11:39:37 airbreather_1 is now known as airbreather 11:51:12 RBRubicon has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:51:50 RBRubicon has quit 11:52:40 RBRubicon has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:07:42 Ksipax has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:16:31 antephialtic has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:17:07 Ursium has quit 12:18:29 go1111111 has quit 12:19:11 edulix_ is now known as edulix 12:19:24 RBRubicon has quit 12:24:44 Ksipax has quit 12:27:37 orperelman has quit 12:27:53 orperelman has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:31:29 antephialtic has quit 12:33:21 Ksipax has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:52:47 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:58:26 Ursium has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:06:19 shesek has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:10:04 gmaxwell: took me long enough but I run this histogram on your gox addresses, nothing interesting, same as prev just much less data, looking at these I'm not buying theory of 500k+ btc slowly escaping because of TM and automatic reissues 13:11:41 gavinandresen has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:16:42 Ksipax has quit 13:35:31 shesek has quit 13:37:26 shesek has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:42:03 antephialtic has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:42:25 RBRubicon has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:46:01 antephialtic has quit 13:48:09 wallet42 has quit 13:58:25 orperelman has quit 13:59:18 RBRubicon has quit 14:01:51 so has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:02:17 orperelman has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:03:52 wallet42 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:08:26 orperelman has quit 14:09:30 nsh has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:35:43 fanquake has left #bitcoin-wizards 14:41:01 adam3us has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:44:59 would be interesting to put it together with bitcoin days destroyed because of the latest statement and peak in bitcoin days destroyed in feb, but Im done with this stuff for now 14:49:32 pajarillo has quit 14:51:19 gmaxwell: mmm bar sasson indicated that it was so to me in an email 14:51:28 gmaxwell: heh, I was giving some lower bound 14:51:40 but yeah, 1000x to 1x useful 14:51:48 whatever, a huge constant 14:52:26 ben* 14:53:06 "Is there a guarantee that there is no way to generate a signature if a correct answer is otherwise found in a quicker manner than running `P`, the original program, via running `Q` instead?" 14:53:19 A: "Yes, the only way (assuming you cannot break crypto) is to run P, not Q." 14:53:36 now, tbh I don't understand the crypto at all 14:56:21 realazthat: i'd need to see a pretty solid argument for that claim, if you do an SHA256 outside of the POW, you know exactly how many iterations need to be done before finding the right hash. the claim that you can't make a proof of exactly that many iterations of the same program, without actually doing them under proof, is nontrivial 14:56:33 interesting that ben-sasson makes that claim tho, thx for that 14:57:13 iterations of the same code* 15:05:03 Ksipax has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:05:27 Ksipax has quit 15:10:43 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has quit 15:11:09 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:11:58 anyone looked to see if they can tie a gox address to a transaction with an nlocktime? obviously we wouldn't see the real one, but undoubtedly if mark were going to do this he would experiment first and might give us a rough timestamp on when he locked away his deep cold coins (if indeed that's what happened - i'm basing this on him saying they were not lost, but "inaccessible"). him using a lock_time seems more plausible to me than losing the privat 15:11:59 keys. 15:12:30 shesek has quit 15:12:39 (i imagine the gox address would be a few hops away from the address where he did that experiment) 15:13:12 mining the blockchain I found 47 transactions using an epoch lock_time, and have a list of gox addresses (from reddit) - just wondered if anyone is going down the same path 15:13:18 *datamining 15:14:06 zooko has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:14:23 pajarillo has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:22:16 aksyn: if mark is using an nlocktime tx to keep coins from himself (and i do not find this a likely story), he won't publish the tx until it can be mined 15:22:36 oh, i see, you think there's an experiment one 15:22:38 andytoshi: i realise that, but you wouldn't just blindly do it without testing the theory 15:22:44 andytoshi: exactly 15:23:10 i think that's worth looking that, i'd be curious about nlocktime use in general 15:23:14 andytoshi: he may have been doing it for security reasons, or for his personal stash, or maybe even some nefarious reason (like putting it 5-10 years in the future when any criminal action has gone away) 15:24:33 what's cool (and more -wizardly) is that you can create single signatures where you don't know the privkey 15:24:55 you sign with random data and calculate the pubkey from that (which will also be random) which makes the sig valid 15:25:53 unfortunately you can't use this to locktime funds because you need to know the txid of your input, but to create the input tx you need to know the pubkey :( 15:26:27 zooko has quit 15:27:33 if we could reference inputs by txout instead of txid:index this would work, a totally secure way to lock funds from yourself. and you could make the signature be some nothing-up-my-sleeve number to prove to others that you don't possess the key 15:27:43 s/don't possess/never possessed/ 15:29:24 oh, never mind, even referencing by txout does not work. you'd need to somehow refer to a specific txout without knowing what it is beforehand 15:31:53 tacotime has quit 15:32:17 andytoshi: "you can't use this to locktime funds" - so.. what other use case is there? 15:33:01 andytoshi: that's an interesting idea, the txout one.. 15:33:42 wallet421 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:33:43 wallet42 has quit 15:33:43 wallet421 is now known as wallet42 15:34:31 aksyn: can't think of any 'real' uses off the top of my head, making uniformly random valid signatures may be useful for security proofs 15:34:39 DougieBot5000 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:34:54 aksyn: but i figured out how you can locktime funds with this, tho you need a few more opcodes 15:37:06 nvr mind, dammit. all i got was a twisted version of pay-to-pubkeyhash 15:37:19 "pay-to-(r,s)-hash" 15:39:22 spinza has quit 15:44:56 if there was a signature type which simply did not sign its input reference, then we could lock funds this way. 15:45:59 create a locktimed TX which does not sign its input reference, with a random ECDSA signature. compute the pubkey for the sig. spend to the corresponding address. use that spend as the input of the locktime'd tx 15:48:17 stonecoldpat has quit 15:50:12 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has quit 15:51:03 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:52:38 stonecoldpat has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:53:28 shesek has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:00:37 adam3us has quit 16:06:00 Ksipax has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:13:41 jtimon has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:15:34 grau_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:18:29 grau has quit 16:19:22 spinza has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:34:03 zooko has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:35:47 pajarillo has quit 16:46:26