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So you might be able to graft a compesnation scheme onto that, at least so long as its the original storing party paying. 02:17:28 my approach is based on flate decoding and their position on the page 02:18:00 (i remove the actual pdfobject from the stream or w/e; in fact, i somewhat break the pdf file format by not mending the xtable table) 02:18:17 but you could still have all the users dump all the data onto a single real machine, so your redundancy might be ficticious... but they wouldn't save any storage due to that. 02:18:32 downside in that case is that the network can't heal without your help. 02:18:46 correct, but if you reward credit based on what the nodes report, then those colluding centralized nodes earn a greater amount of credit i think 02:19:16 they tried to make a handwavy comparison to mining :) it is cute: http://blog.maidsafe.net/2014/02/18/token-on-maidsafe-network/ 02:19:29 yea, if its something other than the storing party paying then you're just hosed, because I can just make my data the digits of SHA256(secret||hash) so anyone can statelelessly simulate storing it. 02:20:33 wow there is a lot of completely confused gibberish on that page. 02:20:41 you know, i didn't even notice the watermarks were removed in your dump 02:20:53 gmaxwell: can you decipher what maidsafe actually is yet? 02:20:54 torrents don't work as a mechanism for distributing science content. libgen has 7000 torrents that nobody seeds. 02:21:24 kanzure: They weren't removed, actually I published the watermarked copies, to make it clear that they were from JSTOR. 02:21:29 andytoshi: it just seems to be wrappers around generic storage concepts 02:21:31 (but I had previously removed them) 02:21:35 gmaxwell: oh i mean, watermarks like IP addresses? 02:21:45 andytoshi: https://github.com/maidsafe/MaidSafe/blob/master/tools/drive_test.py 02:21:50 andytoshi: https://github.com/maidsafe/MaidSafe/blob/master/tools/vault.py 02:21:59 kanzure: oh no, those weren't there. I left the logotype in. :) 02:22:07 i see 02:22:13 (they weren't originally there either, because reasons.) 02:22:26 i recently met someone who was ex-jstor 02:22:38 he was happy to spill the beans about terrible internal architecture stuff :) 02:22:49 kanzure: torrent is terrible, but it's an okay bulk method to get data to other people who will make it available via better mechenisms. 02:23:07 right- specifically i mean the social adoption around torrents, not the protocol itself 02:23:10 nobody seeds etc etc 02:23:19 yea. 02:23:34 the torrent webseed stuff was basically junk last I checked too. 02:24:13 it's a hard problem to solve. let's just pretend a certain someone has multiple terabytes of extremely high-quality pdfs. now what.. there's basically no humanitarian org that will touch it (argh). 02:24:23 internet archive is generally uninterested 02:24:25 d34th has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:24:25 ethereum was proposing data storage contracts based around doing verification of merkle trees containing the data, i think they're in the ethereum whitepaper. 02:27:53 gmaxwell: what was it you didn't like about the concept of a torrent web seed? 02:31:15 jcorgan: its a great concept, but at least when I last tried they basically didn't work— required server considerations and then some/many/most torrent clients wouldn't actually use them. Maybe its improved. 02:33:11 mus1cb0x has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:34:59 we distribute the GNU Radio dvd ISO files via torrent; it has a web seed off our server, seems to work well enough (no complaints), and usually we only have 4-5 seeders or less. 02:35:46 i was just curious about your comment as this is the only experience i have with web seeded torrents, not a big torrent user myself 02:36:56 may be working better now then, my expirence is dated by a few years. 02:39:11 Web seed is just a slack way of getting around not running a torrent daemon. But it seems like, if you have a 24/7 web server, you can likely figure out how to set up a 24/7 torrent seed. 02:39:32 Web seeding is definitely broken or odd in several clients 02:40:03 jgarzik: if it worked super well it would allow you to use a regular true HTTP only CDN, where you couldn't necessarily run a full time seed. 02:40:07 if you are running a web server then users will probably pester you to just dump the data over HTTP 02:40:21 gmaxwell, no argument 02:40:37 but it never worked well, so nobody really uses it or demands good support, so it never works well 02:45:48 c0rw1n has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:45:58 just[dead] is now known as justanotheruser 02:47:07 jgarzik, iirc the only client that ever supported it correctly was... something that started with an s 02:47:14 i cant even remember its been so long 02:47:37 shareaza 02:47:55 the DHT experience was disappointing, too 02:48:11 mappum_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:48:23 * maaku_ would participate in a #bittorrent-wizards channel 02:48:24 major clients like Vuze have their own torrent DHTs, and thus, their own islands separate from the rest of the world 02:48:33 jgarzik, it takes thousands of peers before dht works well 02:48:53 phantomcircuit, that was not my experience 02:49:10 jgarzik, DHT + peer exchange can merge the islands 02:49:24 but you need ~20 people from each of the different clients 02:49:44 phantomcircuit, where the DHT was the mainline DHT, and was enabled, and was compiled into the client... it worked. unfortunately all those conditions narrowed the client list dramatically 02:49:50 generally speaking to get that kind of distribution requires a significant multiple of 20 02:50:01 DHT regardless of the client seems to basically not work for small numbes of users. 02:50:13 also oh shit accidentally walked onto a security issue 02:50:17 (not in bitcoin) 02:50:19 sigh 02:50:46 incompetence everywhere tooo the max! 02:50:55 phantomcircuit: I'm still waiting for the announcement that Bitcoin Consultancy is taking over operations for MTGox. 02:51:12 gmaxwell, tomorrow! 02:51:13 :/ 02:51:23 that would be like... me at this point 02:51:38 I think a DHT can work for small number of users if there is little churn. The problem is that in the real world, the probability that a random node joining the network will be long lived is fairly small 02:52:09 antephialtic: and no attackers. :( and no busted software and... 02:52:20 phantomcircuit, you should re-hire Amir as spokesperson now that he has all this puffed notoriety from Darth Wallet ;p 02:52:32 or if not spokesperson, then, something anyway. 02:52:56 phantomcircuit: what possible compensation would motivate you to bother 02:54:02 gmaxwell: agreed, the multitude of failure scenarios are somewhat disheartening. Ian Stoica never mentioned that when he taught my class about Chord... 02:54:23 's/Ian/Ion' 02:57:08 DHT has suffered waves of amazing hype, but generally been an actual engineering failure because of poor performance when not contructed out of spherical cows. :) By itself this isn't so bad, but because of the use of it in torrent (even where it actually doesn't work much of the time when you'd need it) it's often invoked by people who can't even understand explinations about why it wouldn't apply or wouldn't work for whatever ... 02:57:14 ... they're suggesting it for... so I like to gripe, but don't mind me. 02:58:10 gmaxwell: i actually had a person on PM -today- asking why an alt couldn't just use a DHT to use consensus 02:58:27 Would it be an advantage to have 2 minute block times? It would be harder for someone to beat the mainchain from an hour behind if they have 40% with 2 minute blocks than 10 minute blocks. 02:58:32 that is hilarious 02:58:39 he also wanted a POW that could only be computed by humans o.O 02:58:40 stupid support system isn't properly designed 02:58:45 sending passwords in emails 02:59:02 except anybody with admin access can elect to receive emails sent to anybody on the account 02:59:09 justanotheruser: kinda sorta, depends on the number of tx going through the network. 02:59:09 andytoshi: hm. I thought that had died down some what. Perhaps they started hiding from me after I started sending out the ninja assault teams. 02:59:13 so i have emails with the support techs passwords 02:59:20 justanotheruser: at 1mb blocks it'd be less secure 02:59:23 phantomcircuit: are you doing a security audit of someone? 02:59:31 no this was just 100% on accident 02:59:40 sounds like fun 02:59:41 andytoshi: buddhacoin mines by meditation 02:59:45 I hate when that happens. 02:59:52 tt_away: yeah, because there would be a higher ratio of propogationTime:BlockTime right? 02:59:56 TheGame coin, which you mine by not thinking about it. 03:01:25 andytoshi: Can I /q you? 03:01:44 justanotheruser: sure, any time 03:01:45 justanotheruser: uh huh, see GHOST paper. at 192 kb per 2 min block maybe, but i'm not sure the advantage is huge. i suspect you might run into fee economics problems with smaller blocksizes too, as demand for inclusion in blocks in the 2 min timeframe means that people may start submitting higher and higher fees if the blocks are full, but i'm more waiting to see if that's true when blocks are 100% full on the bitcoin 03:01:45 network. 03:01:52 justanotheruser, theoretically if you keep the bandwidth requirement the same but reduce the time between blocks you get more security, however you also get more overhead 03:02:22 rdymac has quit 03:04:21 tt_away: I'm skeptical about the GHOST paper in general, the additional blocks are not commited which means that the chain decisions are not necessarily consistent in the network. Seems very dangerous. I can describe a malicious mining situation where someone with moderate hashpower could potentially keep the network from converging for a very long time. (subject to implementation details that you'd have to get right which no one has ... 03:04:28 ... described) 03:05:01 (e.g. keep feeding out orthorgonal parts of the network orphaned children for seperate forks .. driving the forks constantly towards a tie. 03:05:04 ) 03:06:07 gmaxwell: I am too, but the one relevant bit I think was that at higher tx rates (full blocks) an attacker should be able to doublespend with <51% of the network, which i guess I hadn't considered before (but seems obvious now). 03:06:08 If people find lighter weight fast confirmations interesting you don't even need a hardfork, just softfork everyone onto a block content enforcing version of p2pool, and the p2pool sharechain then gives you your light confirmations. 03:06:32 * tt_away nods. 03:06:43 tt_away: oh well you can probablistically double spend with any share of the network. ... and with probablities that actually make the attacks attractive. 03:06:52 (given current hashpower consolidations) 03:06:56 gmaxwell: right. 03:07:01 rdymac has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:07:16 the nice thing about the sharechain approach— beyond compatiblity— is that it doesn't increase overhead for non-miners. 03:07:30 (or at least non-miners who don't care about the latest fast confirmations) 03:07:55 gmaxwell: is there documentation for the sharechain stuff? i'm not super familiar with p2pool. 03:08:29 gmaxwell, i like the p2pool style fast confirmations approach 03:08:30 and actually i'm starting to feel really ignorant about it, since it seems like an important breakthrough in decentralized mining that i should have understood a while ago. 03:08:31 https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/P2Pool 03:08:36 kanzure: thanks 03:08:46 yeah, all the other descriptions except on the wiki suck 03:09:15 tt_away: it's pretty 'obvious' once you get it. 03:09:38 flotsamuel has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:10:50 ielo has quit 03:13:23 mmozeiko has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:23:37 zooko has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:40:42 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