00:13:46 zooko has quit 00:17:44 bebopzzz has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:27:27 qwertyoruiop_ is now known as qwertyoruiop 00:28:51 andytoshi: can you explain? 00:34:58 nsh has quit 00:38:26 zooko has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:44:27 andytoshi: are you asking if you can you solve the two general's problem in the same way Bitcoin does using zkps for total obfuscation of tx inputs/outputs and instead using miner verification of zkps? 00:45:03 because that's what the zerocash alpha is supposed to be doing in may i guess 00:45:57 OneFixt_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:46:32 Green presented on how the system is supposed to work here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uh6erfE9HYE 00:47:29 The only thing I don't totally understand about that is how the new accumulator works 00:47:41 Krellan has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:47:50 (well, and all the SNARK black magic) 00:47:57 nsh has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:48:20 nsh has quit 00:48:20 nsh has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:49:31 HobGoblin has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:49:53 HobGoblin is now known as Guest36983 00:49:56 I wonder if he'll publish the paper around the same time as the implementation 00:50:44 Fistful_1f_Coins has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:50:47 jron_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:50:57 helo_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:51:12 jarpiain has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:51:36 jarpiain is now known as Guest13025 00:51:44 kinlo_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:51:56 It's scary to me too because it's implementing something so new to the cryptography field -- I guess we'll see whether it sinks or swims. Alt chains are a good field for testing the stability/security of signature schemes and hash functions. 00:52:31 tromp has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:52:53 I mean, we once thought SHA1 was pretty secure. :P 00:55:54 c0rw1n has quit 00:55:54 helo has quit 00:55:54 kinlo has quit 00:55:54 Krellan_ has quit 00:55:54 Fistful_of_Coins has quit 00:55:54 OneFixt has quit 00:55:54 shesek has quit 00:55:54 UukGoblin has quit 00:55:54 Guest17836 has quit 00:55:54 jron has quit 00:58:38 kinlo_ is now known as kinlo 01:00:05 OneFixt_ is now known as OneFixt 01:00:30 mappum has quit 01:02:52 shesek has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:10:41 airbreather_1 has quit 01:10:59 airbreather has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:19:56 airbreather has quit 01:20:19 airbreather has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:22:53 c0rw1n has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:24:14 mappum has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:26:18 zooko has quit 01:26:37 jtimon_ has quit 01:28:38 austinhill has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:28:39 austinhill has quit 01:28:45 austinhill has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:30:11 tromp has quit 01:32:20 airbreather_1 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:35:39 airbreather has quit 01:35:47 tromp has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:43:03 zooko has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:54:09 Fistful_1f_Coins is now known as Fistful_of_Coins 02:01:06 rdymac has quit 02:02:20 Krellan has quit 02:04:36 rdymac has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:06:00 mappum has quit 02:06:17 mappum has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:08:37 go1111111 has quit 02:14:31 zooko has quit 02:24:33 go1111111 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:25:27 roconnor has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:32:58 hno` is now known as hno 02:33:14 hno has quit 02:33:14 hno has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:37:30 tromp has quit 02:37:59 mappum has quit 02:38:03 tromp has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:39:59 mappum_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:41:33 tromp has quit 02:41:45 tromp has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:48:45 shinybro_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:58:23 thrasher1 has quit 02:58:24 thrasher1 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:02:58 roidster has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:05:35 justanotheruser is now known as just[dead] 03:06:15 go1111111 has quit 03:09:19 zooko has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:12:23 bebopzzz has quit 03:23:29 go1111111 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:30:51 tromp has quit 03:31:06 tromp has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:38:24 just[dead] is now known as justanotheruser 03:52:03 zooko has quit 03:54:36 freewil has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:01:28 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:07:33 qwertyoruiop has quit 04:08:28 qwertyoruiop has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:20:30 shinybro_ has quit 04:24:59 shinybro_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:31:06 samson_ has quit 04:32:53 tromp has quit 04:33:26 tromp has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:35:18 If I made a quantum computer and mined 2014 blocks and they all had the same timestamp, would difficulty be infinity (or as high as it can be)? 04:35:54 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has quit 04:37:59 tromp has quit 04:51:41 justanotheruser: no, the blocks would be invalid 04:51:48 at least the majority of them 04:56:43 qwertyoruiop has quit 04:57:22 qwertyoruiop has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:00:59 <[\\\]> [\\\] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:03:00 mappum_ has quit 05:05:10 DadFoundMy has quit 05:07:02 shinybro_ has quit 05:09:04 Isn't the allowed timestamp of a block based on the average of previous blocks Luke-Jr 05:09:21 justanotheruser: it's GREATER THAN, not GREATER-OR-EQUAL 05:09:37 so, after like 6 blocks, you MUST increment 05:11:02 also diff increases are capped at 400% 05:11:08 Luke-Jr: I see. 05:11:31 tt_away: oh really? So that's why quantum computers would take forever to increase diff 05:11:46 at least to the point that it takes 2 weeks 05:11:50 4x still gives you quartic convergence. 05:12:02 quantum computers don't crack sha256 i thought too, but ecdsa, unless i'm mistaken 05:12:22 quantum computers don't crack anything at all yet. 05:12:41 Though if you had a sutably large one it could potentially be used in an adventagious manner for mining. 05:12:47 perhaps. 05:13:05 you'd have to compare the throughput slowness to the fact that it has to do sqrt() the amount of operations. 05:13:20 sha256 has a weakness solvable with shore's algorithm? or is it something else? 05:13:51 has nothing to do with shors algorithim. 05:13:56 shors sorry 05:14:21 In theory QC gives you a tightly bounded sqrt() speedup on _all_ non-linear search. 05:14:22 derp, yeah, that's rsa 05:14:33 (via grovers algorithim) 05:14:57 oh, neat. 05:15:14 though, it requires your function be implemented as a special grover-oracle, and converting your problem to that has polynomial overhead. 05:15:55 and of course any QC that comes into existance will likely be much slower (ops/sec, ops in parallel) than classical computers built using compariable technology and cost... so unclear that it would ever be interesting for mining. 05:19:00 koum has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:42:11 OneFixt has quit 05:42:32 OneFixt has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:43:24 flotsamuel has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:48:23 Mike_B has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:53:12 or anything 05:54:36 indeed. 05:55:36 I certantly hope they are. There are important problems that QCs would make far more tractable which would contribute materially to our species odds of long term survival. 06:18:09 jedunnigan has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:18:17 flotsamuel has quit 06:18:37 jedunnigan has quit 06:20:15 shinybro has quit 06:23:45 shinybro has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:37:43 koum has quit 06:57:57 samesong has quit 07:04:12 spin123456 has quit 07:04:56 spinza has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:07:32 Guest13025 is now known as jarpiain 07:09:28 mappum has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:09:32 antephialtic has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:17:04 antephialtic has quit 07:26:14 roidster has quit 07:27:01 Krellan has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:31:42 area_ is now known as area 07:32:06 area has quit 07:32:06 area has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:36:08 tromp has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:40:51 tromp has quit 07:41:44 eristisk has quit 07:46:38 Mike_B has quit 07:47:36 antephialtic has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:52:10 MoALTz has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:56:01 mappum_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:56:15 antephialtic has quit 08:02:01 CodeShar_ has quit 08:02:22 CodeShark has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:16:49 grzs has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:32:15 eristisk has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:35:19 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:44:05 freewil has quit 08:58:30 mappum_ has quit 09:06:16 ielo has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:11:06 freewil has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:12:03 RBRubicon has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:18:49 Guest58635 has quit 09:22:48 orperelman has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:24:29 eristisk has quit 09:25:13 eristisk has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:34:56 freewil has quit 09:34:59 Sarchar_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:35:15 freewil has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:35:38 roconnor has quit 09:40:38 RBRubicon has quit 09:57:09 adam3us has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:59:27 ielo has quit 10:00:19 justanotheruser is now known as just[dead] 10:05:44 Guest36983 has quit 10:05:44 Guest36983 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:05:48 Guest36983 is now known as UukGoblin 10:08:48 stonecoldpat has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:08:50 jtimon has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:12:46 ielo has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:20:55 orperelman has quit 10:30:02 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has quit 10:32:19 go1111111 has quit 10:35:29 adam3us has quit 10:45:15 go1111111 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:47:35 Sarchar_ has quit 10:48:10 ielo has quit 10:48:11 ielo has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:51:01 TD has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:52:32 nsh has quit 10:59:36 nsh has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:02:06 adam3us has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:16:08 Guest58635 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:32:41 ielo has quit 11:34:21 shesek has quit 11:50:31 ielo has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:52:58 orperelman has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:55:48 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:04:53 ielo has quit 12:06:34 andytoshi has quit 12:08:37 andytoshi has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:26:15 samson_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:27:35 ielo has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:27:47 tgerring has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:32:38 nsh has quit 12:33:51 TD has quit 12:52:46 just[dead] has quit 12:55:42 zooko has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:56:52 go1111111 has quit 13:01:22 just[dead] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:12:03 tgerring has quit 13:20:09 orperelman has quit 13:26:14 tgerring has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:27:21 stonecoldpat has quit 13:59:32 ielo has quit 14:03:48 tgerring has quit 14:19:15 stonecoldpat has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:28:03 helo_ is now known as helo 14:29:55 Emcy has quit 14:44:13 maaku, tt_away: my earlier question was, "how can the p2p network function securely for a snarkchain?" it's nice to get txes out of the blockchain but if they have to be broadcast in order that miners see them, then an adversary can still record every one. 14:48:30 just[dead] has quit 14:48:34 what is a snarkchain? out of interest 14:48:57 as snarks reminds me half-life 14:50:44 stonecoldpat: an alt in which blocks were zero-knowledge proofs of chainstate diffs, rather than giant lists of transactions that everybody has to evaluate and verify 14:51:36 zk-snark == zero-knowledge succinct noninteractive argument for knowledge, that is an efficient zero-knowledge proof which can be written down 14:53:44 andytoshi: because you could give transactions just to a couple single miners. 14:53:53 they don't have to be broadcast. 14:54:39 you could even do something wacky like write 20 versions of a transaction, all conflicting each other, each paying to a different output. give each miner a different one.. you're happy so long as any one of them makes it in. 14:54:50 all miners but the successful one don't learn the input-output mapping. 14:57:13 ielo has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:58:30 i suppose the miner becomes a trusted party then? he essentially obsecures the transfer and based on some proof of work - tells people about a change that cannot be linked ? 14:58:39 stonecoldpat: no! 14:59:13 gmaxwell: oh, that's clever. my original concern was that anyone can claim to be a miner -- but if every miner receives a different output mapping this does not help them at all 15:01:50 andytoshi: yea, thats why they pay me the big bucks. ... I still have no clue if it's really remotely pratical. It's interesting to consider. 15:03:09 one 'practical' idea is to have a miner directory like tor's hidden-service directory, and connect to miners in the same way. 15:03:19 orperelman has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:03:29 but this (a) means the directory is a single point of failure and (b) is susceptible to sybil attacks 15:03:42 I guess you could have an hybrid system with both public and blinded txs, with fees buing paid with public funds so miners can see them 15:04:12 perhaps the miners could put their HS address in their actual blocks instead, that wouldh solve both problems 15:04:44 well, this snark approach is different but that's what I had in mind for "blinded tx" proposals 15:05:21 jtimon: ah, ok. with snarks i think the person mining the tx has to see it, period. (i could be wrong about this). then there is no problem since this person is the fee recipient 15:05:59 I think blinded -tx can be processed with snark too, no? 15:07:13 but, yes, if everything is snark, I guess miners can just pay the fees to themselves "explictly" 15:07:39 i'm not sure exactly what you mean..you cannot blind the inputs because then nobody can verify your txes. and if you blind the outputs, you have to unblind them upon spending for the same reason 15:07:53 so again your miner (at least) can see everything 15:08:36 adam3us calls them "committed transactions" I think, petertodd also posted an inputs-only chain proposal 15:09:13 but they didn't solved how miners got rewarded, that's why I thought an hybrid system is necessary 15:09:51 the outputs are transmitted off-chain directly between the parties involved 15:10:10 ok, i see what you're sayng 15:10:12 and the chain only validates that the inputs are not repeated 15:10:41 adam had more complex approaches using crypto 15:11:37 another problem with that is the evergrowing set of spent inputs, which could "perish" after certain time 15:12:47 then you may need a mechanism to turn the blind coins back into public coins so that you can "restart" the blinded history 15:14:27 but I guess the main purpose of using snark is bandwidth and computing scalability rather than privacy 15:14:38 <[\\\]> [\\\] has quit 15:15:27 yeah, gmaxwell had a neat high-level comment a while back about how you get privacy 'accidentally' by minimizing bandwidth 15:15:38 jtimon: this is mostly something different. 15:16:08 and yea, was mostly a thought expirement about the fundimental linkage between privacy and efficiency. 15:17:04 I see 15:17:15 comboy_ is now known as comboy 15:21:22 jedunnigan has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:22:27 jedunnigan has quit 15:28:43 orperelman has quit 15:32:58 licnep has quit 15:33:41 stonecoldpat has quit 15:38:03 IOI_ has quit 15:38:05 pigeons_ is now known as pigeons 15:39:35 salsa has quit 15:45:53 samesong has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:48:12 DougieBot5000 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:10:52 rdymac has quit 16:13:28 rdymac has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:18:17 a great easy-to-read article about program obfuscation: http://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/2014/02/cryptographic-obfuscation-and.html 16:18:50 stonecoldpat has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:20:55 tgerring has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:34:10 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has quit 16:34:42 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:40:01 andytoshi: indeed, a much better article than the wired one. 16:42:40 the link i posted yesterday about punctured programs also has some cool applications of obfuscated programs. i'm still reading it..would be cool if there was some application there toward my public fhe problem 16:43:15 also btw re ecdsa malleability, i can show that an adversary without a signing oracle (that is, he has access to only one sig) has no more 'simple' malleability. he needs to use all of (r, s, H(m)) in his malleability formula. also he can't leave r alone, he has to create a malleated sig (r', s') where r' != r --- but while learning nothing about his own k' 16:43:47 this is far from the general result, but it makes me think that malleating ecdsa is probably impossible 16:44:39 I think I'd gotten as far before as showing r and s both had to change. 16:45:40 5~that's not strong enough 16:46:07 knowing that it would be impossible given only one signature would already be very interesting, i think 16:50:50 what you can do against a single-sig malleator is give him a completely random (r,s). for any message H you can compute a public key for which this is a valid signature (though you don't get the private key ofc, and you can't make any more signatures with this key) 16:51:41 i thought, maybe if i set r = X(g^k) i'd be able to trick the malleator into finding k and solving discrete log. but that doesn't seem to work 16:53:15 the general problem here is that the owner of the private key can make as many malleated sigs as he wants, just by changing k. so any proof technique has to detect doing this without the privkey somehow. but ECDSA has no numbers which can be convincingly be replaced with random numbers so it's hard to express this lack of information 17:01:22 jedunnigan has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:01:24 jedunnigan has quit 17:06:30 justanotheruser has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:16:59 tgerring has quit 17:22:43 <[\\\]> [\\\] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:24:04 adam3us has quit 17:30:52 ielo has quit 17:33:56 so people keep showing up in #bitcoin-dev saying that they want to build some thing that will handle people's money. 17:34:12 And then they ask really scarry questions which suggest that they are likely to lose all the aformentioned money. 17:34:50 If we respond to these people OH CRAP. DO NOT DO THIS! YOU ARE NOT PREPARED FOR THIS! ... won't that just make them stop asking? 17:36:11 yeah, perhaps i can write a faq which gives correct answers which are designed to be completely overwhelming 17:36:34 i worry that that would seem like we're condoning that behaviour, and ofc no faq can fix muddy thinking 17:38:53 gmaxwell: more likely they ask someone less competent 17:39:09 right. 17:39:24 well worse, the kind of people who would even read the instructions are the half more likely to get things right. 17:39:26 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has quit 17:39:30 So if the instructions say "go away!" ... 17:40:56 maybe there does need to be an EL5 explination about why this is much harder than most any other business you could be in... because mistakes are irreversable, because attackers actually exist (vs elsewhere where targeted attacks at 95% theory), because the legal liabilities are unclear, etc. 17:41:17 and then covers some best practices. 17:41:19 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:44:17 roconnor has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:45:31 stonecoldpat has quit 17:50:22 justanotheruser is now known as just[dead] 17:50:52 that's the biggest lesson people need to learn from cryptocurrencies: handling real money requires a ton of measures, and it's one of the things banks have learned to do (pretty wel) for us 17:51:45 tgerring has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:54:55 bebopzzz has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:57:40 banks have an easier time. For example, two months ago coinbase double paid all their ACHs from a one or two day period. 17:57:48 Probably hundreds of thousands of dollars. 17:57:56 Two days latter.. poof gone, all fixed. 17:58:02 didn't even make a headline. 17:58:22 virtually everything banks do is reversible. 18:01:03 at least they know (probably by learning the hard way) how to protect physically valuable things (gold, cash, ...) in vaults 18:01:39 Thats true. 18:02:06 qwertyoruiop has quit 18:02:47 qwertyoruiop_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:04:17 nsh has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:06:46 nsh has quit 18:06:46 nsh has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:07:53 andytoshi: I can't bare to read this, but you might want to http://imgur.com/a/DNeAI 18:08:15 I think protecting physical assets in meatspace is an incomparable profession to cybersecurity and preservation of purely digital assets. 18:08:54 More apt to bring up that modern banks are also protecting virtual USD and are already forced to be adept at cybersecurity. 18:12:42 gmaxwell: omg "it can be potentially much easier to memorize than a random 256-bit number" 18:13:01 andytoshi: please, I don't want to know 18:13:44 oh, sorry :) i'll say no more. except that whatever you fear, it's probably worse than that 18:14:51 It's always worse than you think, even when you take into account maxwells law. 18:14:54 antephialtic has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:20:44 tgerring has quit 18:25:57 rdymac has quit 18:29:58 rdymac has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:30:42 gmaxwell: did you see the top news item on HN? 18:31:49 such famous 18:32:03 somehow your nick has become a household name it seems, at least among techy crowds 18:32:42 tgerring has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:34:26 ielo has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:36:20 gmaxwell: awesome idea btw 18:40:13 where do we sign up to collectively boycott all bitcoin holding services that don't do this? 18:41:42 anyone have the log of that conversation up already? 18:41:49 that was ultimately from a conversation here. 18:42:11 petertodd: mind if I post the log from March 1st 2013? 18:42:42 just[dead] is now known as justanotheruser 18:52:48 helo: ? 18:56:30 gmaxwell: you mean this (http://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/wizards/2013/0%23bitcoin-wizards.log) starting from 20:13 19:01:15 roconnor has quit 19:08:09 bebopzzz has quit 19:10:08 tgerring has quit 19:10:20 realazthat has quit 19:12:37 antephialtic: the article's content start and ends at 20:13 :P 19:16:33 realazthat has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:16:47 tgerring has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:18:20 rdymac has quit 19:20:40 austinhill has quit 19:26:05 rvhnt has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:27:28 rdymac has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:35:21 samesong has quit 19:35:42 gribble has quit 19:36:15 samesong has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:39:27 antephialtic has quit 19:39:36 jtimon has quit 19:40:36 jtimon has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:41:18 jtimon has quit 19:41:25 jtimon has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:43:30 spinza has quit 19:44:00 gribble has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:59:11 tgerring has quit 20:01:27 gmaxwell: Hey man. The proof of non-insolvency doesn't work if MT knows someone with lots of coins, correct? 20:01:41 antephialtic has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:03:16 (or includes his personal coin stash in the totals) 20:04:11 rvhnt has quit 20:08:29 rvhnt has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:09:24 spinza has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:20:06 tgerring has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:21:41 tgerring has quit 20:29:29 <[\\\]> [\\\] has quit 20:30:43 rvhnt has quit 20:33:55 midnightmagic: that would be fraud 20:37:43 bebopzzz has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:39:04 3rd party auditing would be pretty potent 20:42:46 midnightmagic: by which I mean MT could lie about gox's balance sheet only by means of incontrovertible fraud/incompetence 20:42:47 gavinandresen has quit 20:43:53 either case would be probably be suffient to pierce the corporate veil and take those funds through bankruptsy 20:44:11 forrestv has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:56:49 midnightmagic: and then when the shit goes to court you go after those coins. 20:58:01 midnightmagic: nothing in that space can be air tight— they could prove they have the coins then send them all to a gambling site a moment later. 21:01:09 austinhill has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:01:26 tgerring has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:04:28 sha256 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:07:25 maaku: would it be fraud, or would it make him liable for that moneys? ;) 21:08:42 gmaxwell: which would make it mismanagement, rather than fraud 21:09:06 Luke-Jr: it would be either criminal fraud or gross negligence, in either case it'd probably be sufficient to pierce the corporate veil, which would make him liable 21:09:15 but, one big fat IANAL 21:10:57 gmaxwell: I was thinking about the things people are saying about your method and I'm worried that this "proof" word they keep throwing around is dangerous. "Hey where are my 10kbtc?" "Prove you had it!" "Okay screenshot!" "Wow I'm an uneducated user who's gambling with money I can't afford to lose and that's proof enough for me. I believe you, Sir!" 21:12:09 midnightmagic: But is that worse? Some of this is growing pains, we need to become more sophicated— if not every single adult, at least a critical mass that can sniff out problems and alert others. 21:12:33 If too often we shy away from improvements because they'll be misapplied we won't get a chance to learn. 21:13:14 I did a number of goxbtc buys two weeks ago and escrowed for a bunch more last week and people's security practices were uniformly awful. 21:13:39 No it's not worse at all. 21:13:44 E.g. almost no one waited for even a single confirm when they should have... they were surprised when I suggested they do so in the future. 21:14:16