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This channel is logged at http://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/wizards/. For questions about the logs talk to andytoshi." 03:02:04 Users on #bitcoin-wizards: andytoshi-logbot andytoshi jarpiain_ hnz Guest67602 asoltys Guest24999 otoburb__ wyager gribble cpacia pigeons_ go1111111 espes___ matrixfo1 spin123456 tromp_ edulix_ Xarian Krellan__ Alanius Muis_ shinybro_ nsh imsaguy azariah4 tucenaber_ adam3us1 samson_ austinhill ryan-c nessence_ OneFixt [\\\] flotsamuel forrestv bobke trn rdymac qwertyoruiop Sorcier_FXK Hunger- Emcy perrier iddo pajarillo UukGoblin epscy Luke-Jr Krellan jrmithdobbs 03:02:04 Users on #bitcoin-wizards: michagogo|cloud Sangheili Mikalv K1773R c--O-O CodeShark HM_ licnep IOI_ coryfields zacm shesek ironzorg maaku wangbus firepacket midnightmagic shinybro nanotube hno` tt_away crucif0rm salsa poggy warren aksyn jron jgarzik sl01 BlueMatt grazs helo amiller kinlo crescendo rs0_ @ChanServ phantomcircuit Ryan52 Fistful_of_Coins wumpus optimator fagmuffinz gmaxwell petertodd heakins sipa realazthat a5m0 comboy Graet harrow EasyAt typex 03:03:38 pigeons has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:04:02 pigeons is now known as Guest77872 03:04:13 Guest24999 has quit 03:04:15 pigeons_ has quit 03:04:15 hnz has quit 03:04:37 perrier_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:04:38 perrier has quit 03:04:44 jedunnigan has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:09:54 hnz has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:10:14 Guest67602 has quit 03:11:00 wyager has quit 03:11:45 ageis_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:12:09 cpacia has quit 03:25:25 zooko has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:31:01 zooko has quit 03:33:44 matrixfo1 is now known as matrixfox 03:36:37 otoburb__ has quit 03:36:46 otoburb__ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:37:09 otoburb__ is now known as Guest82291 03:37:39 Guest82291 has quit 03:37:39 Guest82291 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:40:02 Guest82291 is now known as otoburb` 03:40:43 otoburb` is now known as otoburb 04:03:50 nOgAnOo has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:06:14 adam3us1 has quit 04:22:48 austinhill has quit 04:29:55 it's late and there's probably something stupidly wrong about this, but i think i've proven that schnorr sigs are nonmalleable. specifically, a malleability attacker can be used to produce an actual signature forgery. http://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/wizardry/schnorr-mall.pdf 04:31:01 (ofc there could still be malleability in the actual encoding of signatures. but that's easy to standardize. what this shows is that there are no algebraic manipulations which allow malleability) 04:43:04 roidster has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:46:11 ageis_ is now known as ageis 04:49:56 jedunnigan has quit 04:52:33 andytoshi: I believe your argument is correct. (well the top of Theorem 1 is really all I needed, your later inverted-blackbox argument struck me as maybe a little tortured, but I'm tired too) 04:55:19 rdymac has quit 04:55:35 gmaxwell: thx, good to have your confidence (and that you agree the top of theorem 1 is really the heart of the matter, malleating a sig means somehow malleating the hash). i'll check it over tomorrow and clean it up 04:57:25 I will send flowers to your funeral after you attempt this on DSA. Schnorr is really a tidy protocol compared to DSA. 04:59:40 rdymac has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:59:46 lol, that's why i started on schnorr. (and it still took me many tries to find the right reduction!) 05:41:29 RoboTeddy has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:41:31 RoboTeddy has quit 05:41:49 RoboTeddy has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:52:36 tromp_ has quit 06:03:44 RoboTeddy has quit 06:06:38 antephialtic has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:12:46 shinybro_ has quit 06:15:03 rdymac has quit 06:29:15 shinybro has quit 06:31:23 shinybro has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:44:14 nOgAnOo has quit 06:50:19 antephialtic has quit 06:50:53 antephialtic has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:52:35 antephialtic has quit 06:52:54 antephialtic has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:53:06 roidster has quit 07:01:46 e4xit has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:11:58 flotsamuel has quit 07:27:16 antephialtic has quit 07:27:52 antephialtic has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:32:16 antephialtic has quit 07:34:39 nessence_ has quit 07:35:18 nessence has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:39:49 nessence has quit 07:50:35 JochenKlump has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:02:31 nOgAnOo has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:03:41 RoboTeddy has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:05:38 all are welcome to join www.facebook.com/groups/pandacoin 08:11:26 Krellan has quit 08:14:39 pajarillo has quit 08:14:47 espes___ has quit 08:14:47 qwertyoruiop has quit 08:14:53 espes__ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:16:27 gmaxwell has quit 08:17:52 gmaxwell has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:18:01 fagmuffinz has quit 08:18:17 gmaxwell is now known as Guest92156 08:18:46 fagmuffinz has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:21:54 qwertyoruiop has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:22:13 tt_away has quit 08:22:21 Krellan has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:23:04 Guest92156 has quit 08:23:04 Guest92156 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:23:13 Guest92156 is now known as gmaxwell 08:26:02 jrmithdobbs has quit 08:26:51 Krellan has quit 08:26:56 jrmithdobbs has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:27:15 Krellan has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:34:00 Krellan has quit 08:39:46 Krellan__ has quit 08:42:48 andytoshi: that's great news. ecdsa will be much harder, but baby steps :) 08:44:07 pajarillo has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:45:50 nessence has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:45:53 ielo has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:50:04 nessence has quit 08:56:00 antephialtic has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:23:48 Krellan has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:23:51 ielo has quit 09:37:27 spinza has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:38:50 Krellan has quit 09:40:04 spin123456 has quit 09:40:17 Krellan has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:40:48 Krellan has quit 09:44:25 orperelman has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:44:49 Krellan has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:55:45 RoboTedd_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:57:57 RoboTeddy has quit 09:58:43 c0rw1n has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:14:09 antephialtic has quit 10:14:42 antephialtic has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:15:06 rs0_ has quit 10:15:57 rs0 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:18:45 antephialtic has quit 10:30:21 jtimon has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:20:03 rdymac has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:23:55 fanquake has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:26:31 ItsDom has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:26:46 lnovy has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:29:45 zooko has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:30:09 BitCoroner has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:30:43 highman78 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:31:29 ironzorg has quit 11:32:36 fanquake has left #bitcoin-wizards 11:33:45 ;;cjs 11:33:45 Coinjoin Status: There is no currently open session. Visit https://www.wpsoftware.net/coinjoin/ or http://xnpjsvp7crbzlj3w.onion/ to start one. 11:35:28 oh, this works here? Nice 11:38:27 ironzorg has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:40:40 area has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:43:43 swulf-- has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:46:32 airbreather has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:46:39 freewil has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:47:25 rdymac has quit 11:49:04 rdymac has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:52:59 harrow has quit 11:59:08 harrow has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:06:00 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:06:01 oooooo has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:13:06 JochenKlump has quit 12:23:45 zelgada has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:36:16 zooko has left #bitcoin-wizards 12:48:41 <[\\\]> [\\\] has quit 12:49:45 comboy has quit 12:50:05 comboy has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:50:27 <[\\\]> [\\\] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:55:49 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has quit 12:56:16 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:58:50 adam3us has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:06:48 i've updated the schnorr sig paper to fix some minor typos and give the attacker an arbitrary number of valid sigs to malleate. i reread the argument and i think it's correct. 13:18:13 link? 13:20:52 nsh: http://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/wizardry/schnorr-mall.pdf 13:21:37 shinybro has quit 13:24:03 thanks! :) 13:24:09 how are things, otherwise, andytoshi? 13:24:31 * nsh should catch up on the malleability discussion on the list 13:26:47 samson_ has quit 13:27:25 tromp_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:28:24 nsh: things are well, a little busy. don't catch up with the malleability discussions, it's all crazy users saying crap :) 13:29:16 tromp_ has quit 13:32:30 fair point :) 13:32:40 vbuterin has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:37:59 spinza has quit 13:38:31 nsh has quit 13:41:25 spinza has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:49:47 gavinandresen has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:58:11 freewil has left #bitcoin-wizards 14:07:57 swulf-- has quit 14:17:14 qupop has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:18:05 qupop has left #bitcoin-wizards 14:27:46 sipa: ping 14:28:36 antephialtic has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:33:13 antephialtic has quit 14:33:46 antephialtic has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:37:53 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has quit 14:38:11 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:38:38 antephialtic has quit 14:47:13 tt_away has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:49:41 orperelman has quit 15:20:30 Have schmorr signitures been used anywhere widely in the wild? 15:23:18 realazthat: pong? 15:25:48 sipa: regarding the malleability issue, 15:26:39 I think there is a straightforward solution without resorting to any changes to the bitcoin client 15:26:43 zooko has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:27:14 what I do (though untested code), is store the unconfirmed transactions separately, and keep rechecking them for validity 15:27:38 if those transactions/deposits get put into a block with a new txid, 15:27:45 then the old transaction becomes invalid 15:27:52 fagmuffinz has quit 15:28:02 and the new transaction is separately debited 15:28:36 this works, right? 15:29:50 realazthat: well, whenever a transaction is confirmed, you can consider it valid 15:30:00 realazthat: and that can change, even go back from confirmed to unconfirmed 15:30:11 realazthat: the question is when do you consider unconfirmed transactions valid 15:30:18 a/valid/active/ is perhaps a better term 15:30:45 sipa: erm yeah maybe a bad choice of terminoloy 15:31:05 I consider a tx pending if it has < required_confirmations 15:31:18 and debited if it has >= required_confirmations 15:31:27 what I should have said 15:31:44 I keep all the outblock-transactions separately 15:31:59 and recheck their confirmations every heartbeat 15:32:21 as long as you're able to return confirmed transactions back to the unconfirmed set 15:32:22 and change their status to invalid if their confirmations are 0, which would un-debit them 15:33:06 sipa: I am making a huge flowchart of how to do it right 15:33:13 heh its pretty complicated 15:34:52 i think you're making it hard for yourself 15:34:55 Ursium has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:35:17 just have a set of all wallet transactions, consider them active if they're sufficiently confirmed, don't if they're not 15:35:30 the only issue is when to consider unconfirmed transactions active 15:35:50 either never, or in a way to guarantees that no two conflicting unconfirmed transactions are counted active at the same time 15:36:42 OneFixt_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:36:48 sipa: if you want to handle forks graciously as well 15:37:05 yes, it does that 15:37:17 (just know that transaction can go back from confirmed to unconfirmed) 15:37:23 right 15:37:38 if they are part of a block, I check the blocks, not the transactions individually 15:37:48 if they are out-of-block, I recheck them individually 15:40:40 OneFixt has quit 15:41:34 nessence has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:41:41 nessence has quit 15:41:48 <[\\\]> [\\\] has quit 15:43:26 zooko has quit 15:44:33 nessence has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:45:14 orperelman has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:46:25 c0rw1n has quit 15:49:46 DougieBot5000 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:55:19 zooko has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:06:04 samson_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:14:46 c0rw1n has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:15:10 c0rw1n has quit 16:17:10 vbuterin has quit 16:21:49 OneFixt_ is now known as OneFixt 16:23:06 Luke-Jr has quit 16:32:59 tromp_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:37:25 tromp_ has quit 16:42:31 samson_ has quit 16:50:42 samson_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:04:10 JochenKlump has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:04:12 nsh has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:13:39 nsh has quit 17:14:32 austinhill has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:27:40 austinhill has quit 17:28:09 Ursium has quit 17:32:49 Ursium has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:34:24 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has quit 17:34:51 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:45:32 ItsDom has quit 17:53:49 antephialtic has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:54:51 nsh has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:54:51 nsh has quit 17:54:51 nsh has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:55:14 wow error correcting codes are complicated... 18:02:38 tromp has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:09:59 shesek has quit 18:11:18 e4xit_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:12:07 e4xit has quit 18:18:10 e4xit_ has quit 18:58:39 flotsamuel has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:03:03 ielo has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:05:45 highman78 has quit 19:16:36 antephialtic has quit 19:54:31 Guest76407 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:12:56 qwertyoruiop has quit 20:13:27 qwertyoruiop has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:21:30 heh 20:21:34 gmaxwell, 419592.092360 Gh/s 20:21:44 pretttty sure the cgmienr reporting is broken on this box 20:22:41 lnovy has quit 20:22:53 lnovy has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:29:30 Krellan_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:36:02 cpacia has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:49:15 orperelman has quit 20:50:05 cpacia1 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:51:23 cpacia has quit 20:52:35 qwertyoruiop has quit 20:52:49 qwertyoruiop has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:53:12 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has quit 20:54:14 jtimon has quit 21:00:09 zooko is now known as zooko-standup 21:14:01 lnovy has quit 21:17:48 zooko-standup is now known as zooko 21:21:06 lnovy has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:24:51 qwertyoruiop has quit 21:25:34 qwertyoruiop has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:26:31 qwertyoruiop has quit 21:27:10 qwertyoruiop has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:55:01 Luke-Jr has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:57:57 zooko has quit 22:02:36 File hash to allow selective disclosure: 22:02:37 First hash the file with hmac(file,'disclosure hash') to obtain a master key. 22:02:40 Use SHA256(master key)=left_subkey|right_subkey to expand the master key in two keys. 22:02:43 Repeat this process in a binary tree manner until you have a key for every byte in the file. 22:02:47 Now for every byte in the file compute hash sha256(byte_n||key_n). 22:02:49 Arrange these values in a tree. The root of the tree is the hash of the file. 22:02:53 This is functionally equal to a normal hash of a file. 22:02:55 The magic is that you can now reveal any byte or range of bytes in the file, 22:02:59 without revealing anything about the others: select your range, disclose 22:03:02 the master keys which are relevant to those ranges and no others, disclose 22:03:06 the data, and disclose the paths connecting the data back up to the root. 22:03:09 Fin. 22:03:40 gmaxwell: bit ahead of you: https://github.com/opentimestamps/opentimestamps-server/blob/master/doc/git-timestamps.txt 22:04:01 the tricky part is avoiding leakage of info about the length of the file 22:06:17 how do you propose avoiding people brute forcing the adjacent bytes if you are commiting one byte at a time? 22:07:11 gmaxwell: with a master key of course 22:07:18 (did I miss that detail in my writeup?) 22:07:25 haven't read it for like a year now... 22:08:09 yea, I think you did, or it's not clear! 22:08:39 your writeup is certainely more clear! re-reading it it looks like I kinda skipped a detailed explanation of the easier part of the problem... 22:09:11 also my 'master key' is derrived from the file, so no extra nonce needs to be stored and its determinstic. 22:09:54 gmaxwell: ah, looking at my notebook I had a deterministic nonce, but I think you deserve that one :) 22:09:57 RoboTedd_ has quit 22:10:27 gmaxwell: one issue with a deterministic nonce is having to scan the file twice - I also had a nonce based on the prior contents of the whole file, rathe than just the hash of the whole file directly 22:10:55 you could do that, but then the proof becomes huge. 22:10:56 obviously the first bytes pose an issue there... 22:11:20 no, you just provide whatever the state of that nonce is with your proof 22:12:31 qwertyoruiop has quit 22:12:48 I mean, that's how my length-hiding version of it works: use the state to figure out how to hide the lgnth of the tree, byte by byte 22:12:51 *length 22:13:29 (or put another way, deterministically generate some amount of padding from the state nonce, and hash that and the next byte) 22:15:04 if you can play that forward without more data, how do you avoid someone continuing to play it forward? to be clear, the proof in my scheme, if you send, say, the second half of the file (of a power of two lengh) requires sending the data itself, the range, and two sha256 hashes in the proof. 22:16:02 right, playing it forward is an issue; you can handle that by hashing in both directions, so to speak, so that you need the both directional state nonces. 22:16:08 doesn't work well with pipes obviously... 22:16:51 at least the "play it forward" technique doesn't let you play it infinitely forward, as the brute-forcing effort becomes difficult, but it is ugly 22:17:10 but if you use two directional noncese and I show you a byte at the front and a byte at the end, you can merge the two to get the whole file. 22:17:16 nonces* 22:17:44 Luke-Jr has quit 22:17:52 I don't have that problem, because I use a tree structured nonce. 22:18:12 so my proof will never be more than constant*log2(length) 22:18:17 of course, which is a ui issue; the only way past that is to use use a stream cipher and provide the XOR data 22:18:21 (+ data) 22:18:34 and I have no risk of leaking more data if you merge proofs. 22:18:50 hmm... actually, I'll agree that's an improvement over my technique as written; modulo is the issue of proving length of file 22:19:02 yea, well you could always pad up. 22:19:04 though maybe my PRNG padding concept could be applied to the tree too 22:19:14 doesn't even need to be PRNG, it could just be zeros. 22:19:23 you'll just never reveal that part. 22:19:29 no, the PRNG is to determine the length of the padding 22:19:46 Guest76407 has quit 22:20:05 in any case I didn't see a reason to hide the length. 22:20:33 well, sometimes length is useful info, sometimes not 22:20:51 I think the best you can do is obscure it, you can't make it totally unknown. 22:21:02 right, you can make it unknown within some well-defined range 22:21:47 I'd just assume always pad up to the next large power of two or something. 22:22:37 Luke-Jr has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:22:46 more padding == more computation anyway 22:29:25 ielo has quit 22:29:52 hmm... you could do a hybrid scheme, where your tree thing is used for each, say, 1MiB block, but with a incremental nonce based on the concents of all the file. forces the attacker to brute-force a whole block 22:31:55 qwertyoruiop has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:33:19 RoboTeddy has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:33:30 RoboTeddy has quit 22:33:57 RoboTeddy has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:37:05 I don't see why you would need to, what I suggested already requires the smallest possible amount of communications, I think. 22:38:06 I'm thinking from an implementation point of view - having to potentially buffer gigabytes worth of data in a cat file | treehash scenario is ugly 22:44:17 nessence has quit 22:44:35 e4xit has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:45:32 e4xit has quit 22:45:51 e4xit has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:48:31 Ursium has quit 22:56:35 rdymac has quit 23:07:52 rdymac has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:14:37 breesy has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:19:00 Ursium has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:19:43 luke-jr_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:22:13 Luke-Jr has quit 23:24:01 Ursium has quit 23:26:38 I cannot believe this argument (second from the bottom): https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3656 23:26:52 eristisk has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:28:11 gmaxwell, :/ 23:28:33 i actually thought that's how it worked all along 23:28:44 that sentence was terrible 23:29:12 How what worked all along? if they were reusing the inputs they'd have no theft risk (except via social engineering or the like) 23:29:19 (causing them to not reuse the inputs) 23:29:28 gmaxwell: you mean Tux's? (comments are coming fast) 23:29:33 gmaxwell, i mean that's how i thought it worked like 6 months ago 23:29:37 yea tux. 23:30:45 reusing the inputs has the negative effect that bc.i will show a nasty double spend warning and no node that has accepted the original will accept the reissue, which indeed, is a bummer. This doesn't make it acceptable to do anything else. 23:31:18