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00:53:41 <jcrubino> is a provably fair high volume bitcoin currency exchange by 2015 achievable?
00:53:51 <jcrubino> provably solvent
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00:55:09 <maaku> jcrubino: you could do that today
00:55:15 <maaku> but good luck getting people to use it
00:55:26 <jcrubino> businesses or customers?
00:55:32 <maaku> customers
00:55:38 <maaku> well, either
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00:56:48 <maaku> jcrubino: there are already ways to do, e.g., voting pools for moving funds in or out of an open-transactions server
00:56:52 <maaku> which has the properties you asked for
00:57:36 <jcrubino> what practical limitations are there?
00:57:56 <jcrubino> limitations to the implemenation?
00:58:24 <maaku> if you want ot stay within the ecosystem, there are ways of doing similar things with colored coins, tagged assets (e.g. freimarkets), or scripting language extensions
00:58:30 <maaku> any one of which could be finished in 2014
00:58:45 <maaku> if given proper funding and attention
00:59:10 <maaku> jcrubino: performance limitations would be a question for #opentransactions
01:00:58 <jcrubino> where can I read about scripting language extentions?
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01:02:32 <maaku> jcrubino: there isn't a good writeup on that, but I'm organizing a project to come up with a proposal
01:02:37 <maaku> you can read about that here: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/concatenative/conversations/messages/4950
01:03:27 <jcrubino> in your opinion will ethereum be successful enough to stand on its own?
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01:04:22 <jcrubino> of course that fact that your working on extending scripting says alot.
01:04:24 <maaku> there's also the great thread on all the evil things that could be done with scripting language extensions : https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=278122.0
01:04:32 <maaku> which actually has some good non-evil ideas in there too
01:04:42 <maaku> jcrubino: etherium as written? no.
01:05:08 <maaku> but that's why i'm working on my own proposal of course
01:05:50 <maaku> i see great practical utility in a more expressive script, but not in the way etherium is doing it
01:05:53 <maaku> but that's just my opinion
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01:29:45 <holmes.freenode.net> topic is: "Bitcoin research, hardfork wishlist, ideas for the future - see also: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Hardfork_Wishlist https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/User:Gmaxwell/alt_ideas. This channel is logged at http://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/wizards/. For questions about the logs talk to andytoshi."
01:29:45 <holmes.freenode.net> Users on #bitcoin-wizards: andytoshi-logbot K1773R DougieBot5000_ c--O-O shinybro_ CodeShark Emcy ghtdak1 roidster rdymac breesy RoboTeddy MoALTz Krellan_ spinza [\\\] HM_ andytoshi otoburb gribble mappum go1111111 samson_ Muis forrestv licnep IOI_ coryfields skinnkavaj c0rw1n nsh zacm heffner tucenaber shesek OneFixt ironzorg krypto pajarillo jtimon trn ryan-c Xarikins hnz ageis maaku austinhill Sangheili wangbus areaurbum firepacket perrier nOgAnOo jcrubino
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02:51:20 <fract> Not sure if any foundation members are here, but I think it would be prudent to ask Mark karpeles to step down from his board seat. He just threw bitcoin under the bus and caused substantial PR damage in the news today due to his misinformation and FUD.  It was a reckless and irresponsible press release. Something has to be done.
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03:32:29 <petertodd> ;;cjs
03:32:30 <gribble> Coinjoin Status: current session is open for 12 more minutes. There are currently something like 1 transactions in the pot. The most popular output value is 0.02497. To participate, visit https://www.wpsoftware.net/coinjoin/ or http://xnpjsvp7crbzlj3w.onion/ .
03:33:58 <a5m0> i'm interested to see stats on bc.i coinjoin
03:37:02 <petertodd> a5m0: piuk said they're setting about 1.5 users per join
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04:00:50 <a5m0> ah so they just act as the counterparty for the needed coins i guess
04:13:23 <warren> hmm, no adam
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04:50:44 <fract> what kind of a transaction is this/? http://webbtc.com/tx/aa62bdd690de061a6fbbd88420f7a7aa574ba86da4fe82edc27e2263f8743988
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04:51:58 <petertodd> fract: a fuckup
04:52:14 <petertodd> fract: mtgox's custom code lost a few hundred (thousand?) btc a few years back
04:54:25 <fract> no shit.. there a few transactions like that
04:54:32 <fract> over 1000btc outputs unspendable
04:55:08 <petertodd> yup
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06:40:34 <maaku> re: sipa's normative txid patch, perhaps it'd be better to use a base58 serialization so it is visually distinctive?
06:40:57 <maaku> a checksum might even be useful in that context
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08:03:32 <krypto> hello everybody
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08:28:43 <c0rw1n> hello krypto
08:49:23 <krypto> <c0rw1n> is DMD just another shitty coin, or does it have anything going for it?
08:49:42 <c0rw1n> no idea. What's dmd?
08:50:20 <krypto> diamond coin
08:51:04 <krypto> it looks like a copycoin but i am no expert or programmer
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08:54:06 <c0rw1n> never heard of it, but then i'm not following the appearance of every scamcoin that pops up
08:54:24 <maaku> krypto: wrong channel
08:55:05 <krypto> thanks guys
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15:05:17 <warren> adam3us: know anyone that would be good to prove that malleability is fully stopped?
15:05:27 <warren> adam3us: including "algebraic mutations of DSA beyond the single one we know"
15:06:00 <warren> adam3us: we could have a soft fork, but we have to know what we need first...
15:09:54 <adam3us> warren: i was thinking maybe (non-trivial) change to not use the signature but the public key making the signature, so then you would not need the sig algo to be non-crypto-level-malleable; its a new requirement on algorithms that people dont usually think about or care about strongly
15:11:46 <adam3us> are the tx-ids hashed at the leaves of the merkle tree sorted? or is it arbitrary/order received from the tree builders perspective?
15:12:00 <adam3us> "form the bottom row of the tree with the ordered double-SHA-256 hashes of the byte streams of the transactions in the block" in the wiki protocol specification... but what order is that?
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15:23:19 <petertodd> adam3us: order is the order the transactions are evaluated when the block is received; ie the order the transactions modify the utxo set state
15:23:49 <petertodd> adam3us: which is kinda unfortunate as that makes block validation much harder to parallelize
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15:38:24 <adam3us> petertodd: so the tx in the block are pre-validated by the block builder (the succesful miner), and the leaves are in the order in which the block builder received the tx.
15:38:50 <adam3us> petertodd: now if post-mining-event any tx in the block are invalid, the whole block is declared as invalid and ignored I presume?
15:39:36 <petertodd> adam3us: bingo
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16:06:18 <adam3us> maaku: the utxo compaction and trie work.. does that imply a new coinbase version and format at some point?
16:07:27 <sipa> no
16:07:34 <sipa> that would be a hard fork
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18:27:01 <maaku> adam3us: a new block version, yes
18:27:38 <maaku> similar to bip 34
18:28:20 <petertodd> adam3us: blockheader format would stay the same; you'd either commit to the (u)txo tree in the coinbase, or you can do a SPV-soft-fork by making merkleroot=H(actual-merkle-root | secondary tree)
18:30:37 <maaku> petertodd: that would be a hard-fork for bitcoin-qt, right?
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18:31:32 <petertodd> maaku: yes, for full-nodes
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21:11:09 <su_awesome> hi, so if I understand correctly, due to the malleability attack going on right now, it's insecure to send shared coin through blockchain.info?
21:11:29 <su_awesome> (using the coinjoin that blockchain.info implemented)
21:11:49 <andytoshi> su_awesome: absolutely the wrong channel
21:12:19 <su_awesome> andytoshi, oh sorry I thought this was a channel that discussed these sorts of things
21:12:53 <su_awesome> because of the "Bitcoin research" in the title
21:13:25 <andytoshi> su_awesome: o.O that means (academic) research, not anything to do with random companies or their software
21:13:29 <BlueMatt> su_awesome: coinjoin has been officially moved to non-research (ie #bitcoin-dev)
21:13:41 <BlueMatt> and discussing bc.i's implementation is probably more #bitcoin
21:13:58 <andytoshi> oh, i missed the coinjoin part, that's a reasonable misunderstanding
21:14:52 <su_awesome> I see, so this channel is more about theoretical side of BTC instead of what's already written and implemented?
21:15:12 <petertodd> su_awesome: it's not insecure, although it might not work
21:15:27 <petertodd> su_awesome: (bc.i won't lose funds if a cj fails part way through)
21:16:21 <andytoshi> su_awesome: correct. we try to keep it ontopic and low-volume because most regulars here have brain-intensive day jobs and are busy
21:16:53 <petertodd> su_awesome: specifically, most of the regulars read everything here
21:17:18 <su_awesome> petertodd, I see, a user on #bitcoin said that this tx was sent using coinjoin, it took quite a while to be verified, perhaps the attack was the cause? - https://blockchain.info/tx/0654039b8d8e9f97c06a448951d16918a9d1a9ccec4c8e3d252ceb54f843b6f3?show_adv=false
21:18:20 <petertodd> su_awesome: yeah, could be, bc.i uses multi-step mixes, so if one step is mutated the rest fail
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21:19:05 <petertodd> su_awesome: coinjoin as a concept isn't vulnerable; multi-step mixes aren't required
21:20:21 <su_awesome> oh, good to know about that. I hope everything gets better soon. Anyway, I won't bother you guys with my simple questions. Thanks :)
21:20:40 <petertodd> np
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23:59:21 <realazthat> sipa: lol all these problems with the exchanges, I tested for them when making the unit tests for my deposit system, when I was querying you a few weeks back
23:59:46 <realazthat> I remarked to someone else how I bet these things were not accounted for in other systems
23:59:52 <realazthat> so right :D