00:02:41 rdymac has quit 00:03:00 Hmm, it looks like mastercoin is planning on embedding listings in the blockchain... 00:04:58 rdymac has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:06:12 justanotheruser1 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:07:08 justanotheruser has quit 00:08:27 justanotheruser1: listings? 00:10:17 justanotheruser1 has quit 00:12:23 why cant people just do merged mining 00:12:27 why oh why 00:14:27 justanotheruser has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:14:28 nomailing has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:18:41 justanotheruser has quit 00:20:42 nomailing has quit 00:22:52 justanotheruser has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:23:18 justanotheruser has quit 00:23:19 justanotheruser has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:26:04 nomailing has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:26:10 nomailing has quit 00:26:21 nomailing has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:30:50 adam3us has quit 00:31:18 justanotheruser1 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:32:40 tromp_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:33:51 justanotheruser has quit 00:34:52 nomailing has quit 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convo with some paranoid nutbar - seem to have managed to convince him that I was part of the group of cryptographers that was satoshi, but we're all kinda embarassed that we can't code for shit and lost our wallet so none of us want to fess up. But then he deleted it all saying that twitter isn't secure... 07:05:44 07:11:09 justanotheruser has quit 07:11:15 justanotheruser1 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:11:55 justanotheruser has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:11:56 justanotheruser has quit 07:11:56 justanotheruser has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:15:36 justanotheruser1 has quit 07:16:37 Emcy has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:16:37 Emcy has quit 07:16:37 Emcy has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:29:30 petertodd: heh, that's why you archive any good tweets 07:39:05 petertodd: what are your current thoughts on the viability/usefulness of fidelity bonds? 07:51:47 antephialtic: I think using them correctly is a lot more difficult than people realize 07:52:36 antephialtic: gmaxwell was making a good point the other day too how it's easy for anti-spammer stuff to increase the ratio of spammers to good users by making things inconvenient, which makes one of the easier uses of them a lot less useful 07:52:58 petertodd: I'm working on a site to make/rate/verify them in a user friendly way 07:53:22 antephialtic: what type of fidelity bond sacrifice method? 07:53:37 antephialtic: and rate for what type of application? 07:53:51 current plan is an OP_RETURN script specified via the payment protocol 07:54:39 right now it would be for say, arbitrators in an arbitration marketplace. The holder of one bond can sign a rating for another. The end goal is to make it useful for p2p applications. 07:54:42 good - I think my announce/commit sacrifice to mining fees was a bad idea 07:55:01 announce/commit is nice, but it relies on locktime 07:55:21 be careful, gmaxwell makes a good point, it'd be easy to wind up jsut making it more convenient for scammers you know 07:55:30 locktime is supported by the current network you know 07:55:56 heck, I *did* do a real announce commit sacrifice a few months back 07:56:12 ah, I thought it was in some kind of grey area where it wasn't guaranteed to stay enabled due to mempool ddos 07:57:01 yeah, they aren't accepted into the mempool until they can be mined, but that doesn't harm announce/commit in any meaningful way 07:57:31 ok. probably going to stick with OP_RETURN for now due to simplicity, but I'm open to changing it. 07:57:35 c0rw1n has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:58:06 see, the problem with sacrifice to fees is it enocurages mining centralization, because big miners can make sacrifices cheaper than anyone else, on average 07:58:11 so stick with op_return please! 07:58:26 I also have some ideas for ratings. I was thinking about eventually doing some kind of trust score based on EigenTrust 07:59:16 please don't. 07:59:35 nsh has quit 07:59:49 Luke-Jr: is that regarding EigenTrust or OP_RETURN? and can you explain 07:59:49 you know, I'd strongly suggest you implement all this for anti-spam first - that's an application that can handle a bit of bad actors 07:59:56 sacrifice to OP_1 if you don't like fees. 08:00:14 Luke-Jr: announce/commit sacrifices require op_return you know 08:00:21 Luke-Jr: and sacrifice to op_1 is insecure 08:01:27 fine, sacrifice to proof-of-redemption-in-a-later-block 08:01:53 nsh has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:01:53 nsh has quit 08:01:53 nsh has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:01:54 Luke-Jr: which is what announce/commit does 08:02:17 Luke-Jr: but just bare anyone-can-spend will get spent in the same block once miners catch on, so it's unusable 08:04:22 antephialtic: and a word of advice: make the system also accept the P2SH encoding of OP_RETURN as a sacrifice to ensure no-one does anything stupid like disallowed op_return in the future... 08:04:28 *disallows 08:05:09 ghtdak has quit 08:05:39 thanks. I may have further questions at some point - I'll followup with you via email if thats alright with you. 08:05:44 antephialtic: sure 08:06:48 antephialtic: btw, a truly awesome project would be to make a p2p usenet/irc chat based on flood fill using fidelity bonds for spam control 08:07:27 yeah. I have a lot of ideas about applications. mostly involving sybil resistant DHTs 08:07:31 in the future? OP_RETURN was never allowed in the first place. 08:07:49 Luke-Jr: 0.9rc1... 08:07:58 petertodd: developers don't get to make that decision. 08:08:15 petertodd: but also, chaum banks and the like. 08:08:16 antephialtic: get that dirty word "DHT" out of your mind :P 08:09:07 antephialtic: I mean, quite seriously, you don't really need DHT's for any of this stuff, at least for the simple implementations, I'd keep it bitmessage-level simple at first 08:09:15 Luke-Jr: BTCGuild mines op_ret now 08:09:34 petertodd: how neglegent of them 08:10:05 Luke-Jr: yeah, and that other big pool, with what, 13% hashing power? just aweful of them 08:10:27 yeah. well it's going to be even simpler than that for now. This is going to be a CRUD app that allows people to create, view and rate bonds. 08:11:18 antephialtic: well... that's probably downright *dangerous* you know, because it gives people mistaken ideas about what the tech can actually do 08:11:55 antephialtic: having invented the damn things, my name is kinda associated with them, so please don't make the first real-app using them be a disaster :P 08:12:58 I understand and respect that, which is why I'll be in touch via email once I make some progress. 08:13:37 antephialtic: I get that, but again, a generic rating app *is* a dangerous idea! 08:14:57 well I was thinking that a rating is a signed message from a holder of bond A containing a value in the range [0, 10] and an optional message about a dealing with the holder of Bond B 08:15:32 I get that - it *will* be misunderstood by users and applied badly 08:16:07 e.g. how does a user know how many people are relying on the fidelity bond? are you sure the total value of fraud possible doesn't exceed the cost of the bond? how do you know? 08:17:02 those are really, really hard questions - something often missed by people is my fidelity-bonded chuam bank stuff actually does require proof-of-publication mechanisms to be secure - a "pure" version would weirdly look kinda like a blockchain 08:17:40 applied to human mediated transactions without all that careful engineering... people will get scammed 08:18:08 spam on the other hand... if some spam gets through, it's not a big deal, so the flaws are acceptable 08:18:17 hmm. this requires further thought. In the mean time I will limit the app to creation and verifying that a bond exists. 08:18:32 right, but really, you don't need an app for that! 08:19:10 for non-saavy users. And to provide a blockchain.info-like REST api for verification. 08:19:37 yes, and non-saavy users really shouldn't be using fidelity bonds for the forseeable future, for anything really 08:20:31 tl;dr: I invented a very seductive, elegant, footgun 08:22:12 agreed, but I think its also a powerful idea that's being underutilized. 08:22:40 I dunno about you, but I tend to think powerful footguns deserve to be underutilized, at least until we invent better footware. 08:25:12 just point it at someone else's foot. 08:25:14 jk 08:25:46 well, I guess I have some thinking to do. But yeah, I don't want to give scammers a tool to give themselves a false veneer of trustworthiness 08:26:19 antephialtic: indeed, meanwhile an anti-spam use of them would be fine 08:26:29 antephialtic: besides, you'd be a hero for making irc p2p :P 08:47:20 petertodd: going back to the ratings issue for a moment. What if there was some kind of 3-way handshake. Say Bondholder A wants to transact with Bondholder B. A requests a transaction with B valued at X btc. If B approves it, his bond value is temporarily decremented on the site. At the end of the transaction, A gets to submit a rating, and the bond value is restored 08:48:15 obviously this kind of system is reasonable to implement when done in a centralized manner 08:49:02 and by transaction, I don't mean bitcoin transaction, I mean some kind of transaction feature on the app 08:51:48 adam3us has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:53:09 RoboTeddy has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:31:01 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:31:24 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc is now known as Guest75676 09:31:57 mappum has quit 09:33:06 CodeShark has quit 09:43:00 Shibe_tabsa has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:48:16 Guest75676 is now known as _insoc 10:00:44 <_insoc> _insoc has quit 10:00:58 <_ingsoc_> _ingsoc_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:02:06 <_ingsoc_> _ingsoc_ has quit 10:06:00 <_ingsoc_> _ingsoc_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:08:31 hnz has quit 10:12:38 hnz has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:17:16 justanotheruser has quit 10:38:53 mapppum has quit 10:42:38 mappum has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:49:50 jtimon has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:05:36 go1111111 has quit 11:07:59 mappum has quit 11:27:36 nessence has quit 11:30:46 Guest42572 has quit 11:30:46 Guest42572 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:30:57 RoboTeddy has quit 11:31:52 Guest42572 is now known as UukGoblin 11:45:29 <_ingsoc_> _ingsoc_ has quit 11:47:11 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:47:35 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc is now known as Guest58099 11:57:13 CodeShark has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:03:18 MoALTz has quit 12:03:48 roidster has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:06:34 Guest58099 has quit 12:09:48 TD has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:17:37 MoALTz has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:18:39 gavinandresen has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:33:06 nsh has quit 12:34:56 wumpus has quit 12:34:56 wumpus has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:39:15 c0rw1n has quit 12:40:41 oooooo has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:41:30 rdymac has quit 12:44:42 andytoshi has quit 12:46:28 rdymac has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:53:15 Ursium has quit 12:57:25 gavinandresen has quit 13:03:22 justanotheruser has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:11:30 nsh has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:11:30 nsh has quit 13:11:30 nsh has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:22:41 nsh has quit 13:25:33 nsh has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:28:04 justanotheruser has quit 13:32:33 Ursium has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:36:31 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:36:55 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc is now known as Guest90992 13:39:32 shesek has quit 13:50:49 shesek has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:54:46 nsh has quit 14:00:24 c0rw1n has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:11:49 jron_ has quit 14:13:25 jron has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:37:57 Footgun? 14:38:04 * michagogo|cloud hadn't heard that term before 14:44:32 Guest90992 has quit 14:44:59 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:45:23 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc is now known as Guest39713 14:45:59 andytoshi has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:02:18 gavinandresen has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:06:40 c0rw1n has quit 15:09:33 nsh has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:09:39 nsh has quit 15:09:39 nsh has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:10:49 justanotheruser has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:11:32 Guest39713 has quit 15:11:56 <_ingsoc_> _ingsoc_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:13:39 roidster has quit 15:17:59 nsh has quit 15:31:50 nsh has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:34:26 justanotheruser1 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:34:51 justanotheruser has quit 15:38:45 justanotheruser1 has quit 15:39:14 nsh has quit 15:53:49 DougieBot5000 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:54:27 andytoshi: yes emailed djb about the private key bits. it seems like they could be optional so long as the execution time is fixed by starting montgomery adder at bit 254. the lsb are i think relating to multiply by 8 which could be oved to the verification relation. i think; it'd be good to get it from djb. btw i noticed someone on openpgp ietf list talking about making an EdDSA rfc. 15:55:12 maaku_: yes the blind sig with ec schnorr should work. if i got the above right should work on eddsa also. i dont think there is a way to get a blind sig from ecdsa. 15:55:18 justanotheruser has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:01:51 justanotheruser has quit 16:02:22 gavinandresen has quit 16:08:52 adam3us: do you know whether batch verification is possible with schnorr? 16:13:46 Guest70608 is now known as firepacket 16:15:43 shesek has quit 16:16:42 justanotheruser has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:18:01 shesek has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:21:17 <_ingsoc_> _ingsoc_ has quit 16:25:35 justanotheruser has quit 16:26:21 justanotheruser has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:30:54 justanotheruser has quit 16:34:33 justanotheruser has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:36:04 c0rw1n has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:46:28 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:46:52 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc is now known as Guest44377 16:48:38 justanotheruser has quit 16:48:53 justanotheruser has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:50:50 http://blog.ethereum.org/2014/02/03/introducing-ethereum-script-2-0/ 16:51:23 already posted here :) 16:51:32 jtimon, they are learning some lessons 16:51:39 note JMP changes, etc. 16:52:00 v1 was chock full of algorithmic attacks (just like bitcoin!) 16:52:14 oh, sorry I must have been sleeping when posted 16:52:34 tromp has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:53:04 c0rw1n has quit 16:53:46 justanotheruser has quit 16:56:30 nsh has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:06:11 Guest44377 is now known as _insoc 17:06:24 justanotheruser has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:09:25 justanotheruser1 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:11:00 justanotheruser has quit 17:14:19 justanotheruser has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:14:55 justanotheruser1 has quit 17:20:07 justanotheruser has quit 17:20:07 justanotheruser has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:24:14 justanotheruser has quit 17:24:44 justanotheruser has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:28:54 justanotheruser1 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:31:44 justanotheruser has quit 17:33:28 justanotheruser has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:35:56 justanotheruser1 has quit 17:43:48 justanotheruser has quit 17:44:04 justanotheruser has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:56:32 c0rw1n has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:58:34 Muis has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:13:04 justanotheruser has quit 18:13:05 justanotheruser has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:16:13 antephialtic has quit 18:20:50 TD has quit 18:29:27 justanotheruser1 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:31:19 justanotheruser has quit 18:37:34 gavinandresen has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:37:35 gavinandresen has quit 18:37:35 gavinandresen has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:40:41 sipa: the eddsa page says http://ed25519.cr.yp.to/index.html 134000 cycles per signature in size 64 batches 18:48:09 on page 10 of the ed25519 paper it describes the differences with schnorr: ed25519 uses double-size hashing (hashing the pubkey along with the ephemeral pubkey and message) instead of half-size hashing and no compression of the ephemeral pubkey 18:48:40 my reading is that batch verification for regular schnorr should be possible with the same techniques 18:50:03 ok, anyone have the links to the ny bitcoin hearings? 18:50:13 * BlueMatt is on a deadline....need them like an hour ago 18:53:40 nevermind, found them somewhere 18:54:11 BlueMatt: http://www.totalwebcasting.com/view/?id=nysdfs 18:54:27 thanks 18:55:12 justanotheruser has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:56:19 justanotheruser1 has quit 18:59:11 gavinandresen has quit 19:05:20 justanotheruser1 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:05:41 justanotheruser has quit 19:08:23 gmaxwell: Ah, they're available online too? 19:08:43 I just saw your captures 19:09:49 Wait, why am I seeing protobuf flash by in a tailf of build.log for boost? 19:12:38 justanotheruser has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:13:50 2dc3b04d0bb03e1ad0c18dfe1c5635aa6e3741a7a6173203554d8345cd5b5a95 bitcoin-deps-linux64-gitian-r3.zip 19:14:03 justanotheruser1 has quit 19:16:09 Oops, wrong channel 19:17:30 justanotheruser has quit 19:17:30 justanotheruser has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:20:39 justanotheruser1 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:21:40 justanotheruser has quit 19:29:53 justanotheruser has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:32:34 justanotheruser1 has quit 19:35:07 TD has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:39:14 justanotheruser1 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:39:39 justanotheruser has quit 19:40:28 c0rw1n has quit 19:51:39 justanotheruser has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:52:30 justanotheruser1 has quit 19:52:45 go1111111 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:53:32 maaku_ has quit 19:56:29 maaku has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:56:53 maaku is now known as Guest86895 19:58:13 justanotheruser1 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:58:59 justanotheruser2 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:00:42 justanotheruser has quit 20:01:26 orperelman has quit 20:02:34 justanotheruser1 has quit 20:03:11 justanotheruser2 has quit 20:07:49 justanotheruser has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:13:56 andytoshi has quit 20:16:19 justanotheruser has quit 20:16:36 justanotheruser has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:16:42 justanotheruser has quit 20:17:40