00:03:21 DougieBot5000 has quit 00:04:06 OneFixt has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:07:06 johnsoft has quit 00:08:08 johnsoft has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:13:34 go1111111 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:21:13 johnsoft has quit 00:21:36 johnsoft has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:29:30 andytoshi has quit 00:35:38 HM has quit 00:45:25 Emcy_ has quit 00:51:37 <[\\\]> [\\\] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:00:53 ielo has quit 01:05:17 Emcy has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:09:28 tromp has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:09:59 johnsoft has quit 01:10:42 johnsoft has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:10:49 mappum has quit 01:11:25 mappum has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:25:15 nOgAnOo has quit 01:55:39 phrackage has quit 01:56:27 Emcy has quit 02:19:15 mappum has quit 02:24:06 mappum has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:26:07 mappum has quit 02:32:59 Shibe_tabsa has quit 02:33:19 justanotheruser has quit 02:33:42 mappum has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:47:17 mappum has quit 02:49:31 justanotheruser has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:52:13 justanotheruser has quit 02:52:13 justanotheruser has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:57:03 RoboTeddy has quit 02:57:10 RoboTedd_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:15:32 phrackage has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:18:04 mappum has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:18:20 nosniv has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:20:09 justanotheruser has left #bitcoin-wizards 03:22:45 mappum has quit 03:46:34 eristisk has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:53:40 andytoshi-logbot has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:53:40 topic is: "Bitcoin research, hardfork wishlist, ideas for the future - see also: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Hardfork_Wishlist https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/User:Gmaxwell/alt_ideas. This channel is logged at http://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/wizards/. For questions about the logs talk to andytoshi." 19:53:40 Users on #bitcoin-wizards: andytoshi-logbot nomailing orperelman Shibe_tabsa mappum c0rw1n adam3us TD Emcy andytoshi rdymac nsokl_ _ingsoc go1111111 DougieBot5000 jtimon tromp phrackage Ursium_ Guest63294 roidster hnz RoboTedd_ nOgAnOo johnsoft OneFixt Graet firepacket perrier imsaguy qwertyoruiop comboy gavinandresen EasyAt pajarillo UukGoblin poeticlobster Alanius espes__ Luke-Jr tromp__ Muis nanotube salsa__ salsa_ salsa ioi CodeShark ghtdak sl01 rs0_ crescend1 19:53:40 Users on #bitcoin-wizards: Fistful_of_Coins spinza MoALTz maaku forrestv edulix kinlo typex K1773R BlueMatt crucif0rm Krellan aksyn bobke iddo Sangheili midnightmagic tt_away realazthat gribble gmaxwell wumpus wrabbit grazs warren otoburb zacm epscy licnep tucenaber Mikalv wangbus a5m0 harrow hno heakins lianj optimator @ChanServ sipa helo Ryan52 azariah4 phantomcircuit amiller pigeons petertodd jrmithdobbs jron asoltys poggy Sorcier_FXK ryan-c ageis cfields jgarzik 19:53:40 Users on #bitcoin-wizards: michagogo|cloud 19:53:53 systemd says irc-logger was running continuously since Sun 2014-01-19 09:39:07 PST <.< 19:57:41 dlidstrom has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:25:48 i put a new version of my cuckoo cycle paper on https://github.com/tromp/cuckoo that discusses parallelizability 20:32:19 tromp has quit 20:36:28 tiffany has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:41:26 tt_away is now known as tacotime 20:41:30 tacotime is now known as tacotime_ 20:51:26 RBRubicon has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:52:30 i'm frustrated, i found a bunch of errors in this line of work i've been following closely and trying to build off of 20:52:45 in the "universally composable" security framework / network model 20:52:58 i'm trying to submit a paper in like a week 20:53:12 basically the best thing for me to do is to just inherit all of those errors for now. 20:53:35 since the whole thing is unrelated to the main points i'm trying to make 20:53:59 20:54:39 RBRubicon has quit 20:54:55 :-( 20:57:39 Theoretical work that isn't sound, say it aint so! 21:07:25 TD has quit 21:12:14 theory tends to be neither sound nor practical, but can be broad/expansive and is relatively efficient to work on 21:12:43 practical implementations tend to be neither generic nor sound 21:13:20 and formal methods coq-stroking exercises are sound but neither practically useful nor generic 21:13:37 amiller: but practical implementations to tend to work ;) 21:13:55 mostly :) 21:15:46 tromp the very term "non-parallelizable pow" seems contradictory to me 21:16:01 oh, he's gone... 21:16:51 if two miners can try to solve the same block in parallel, how can't the same miner do the same? 21:17:10 how can't a single miner do the same? 21:17:44 well, I'll tell him to find another term another time... 21:18:17 i'm back 21:18:59 different miners will work on difference instances, i.e. different cuckoo graphs 21:19:17 so what you really mean by "non-parallelizable pow"? is non-parallelizable using a given architecture, no? 21:19:19 i want a single instance to be hard to parallellize 21:20:12 hard to parallelize in current GPUs and x86 archs? 21:20:33 c0rw1n has quit 21:20:38 yes, because they limit how many random accesses you can make to main memory in parallel 21:20:42 andytoshi: I'm reading LWN and "Hey, the same thing happened to andytosh...ahh" 21:21:29 tromp__ what's the point? 21:21:34 and because path conflicts will reduce the prob. of finding a ccyle 21:22:10 the point of what? 21:22:45 the point of "hard to parallelize in current GPUs and x86 archs pow" 21:23:20 sc? rs? ch? 21:24:29 because being able to have many simultaneous random accesses to main memory is generally useful 21:24:52 for bitcoin? 21:25:10 for general computation 21:25:27 in other words...what's the problem you see in SHA256 that you're trying to solve with cucko? 21:26:04 it promotes custom hardware that it not generally useful 21:26:19 and centralizes mining power 21:26:20 tromp__: no matter how much you try, dedicated hardware will still be faster/more-'hash'-per-watt by some factor 21:26:29 and cucko-ASICs will be generally useful? 21:26:32 and our experience shows that it will not be long until someone makes an asic 21:26:38 that is not general-purpose 21:27:07 fast parallal RAM access is more generally useful yes 21:27:34 tromp__ with or without RAM, it's still specialized hardware 21:28:14 ASIC != general purpose computer 21:28:59 cheap better memory interconnects will be commoditizeed 21:29:03 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has quit 21:29:26 your intel CPU and your memory chips are also ASICs 21:29:50 but because they're general purpose they are commoditized 21:29:53 no, they're general purpose 21:30:08 asic = application specific 21:30:25 gmaxwell: :P i wondered if you'd catch that. (thx for checking the key for me!) 21:30:27 here's the thing 21:31:00 to optimize cuckoo, you have to optimize a more general thing: namely parallel random memory access 21:31:27 cool, but I'm still not able to run emacs on my old cucko-ASIC 21:31:27 it's still all about memory 21:31:32 tromp__: no, they will just put all the memory and custom circuits on a single die, because that's the most efficient thing to do 21:31:44 you won't get any commoditization of general purpose hardware 21:31:51 rather than building an asic full of specific computational steps 21:32:39 so your goal is for asic manufacturers to research random memory access? 21:32:50 that doesn't work for random memory access, maaku 21:33:51 tromp__: it absolutely does. an integrated system-on-chip would always be more efficient than having external interconnects 21:34:16 I still don't understand the goal, and it's sad for me to see so many smart people dedicated to something I consider a complete waste of time 21:34:21 pls explain how you'd implement pointer chasing on a die 21:34:23 and because of heat dissapation and power issues, it may even end up having asic vs. gpu/cpu be an even *larger* performance jump than sha256 21:35:04 the goal is a pow constrained by memory latency 21:35:16 but why? 21:35:17 tromp__: the same way you do on a cpu, but put the cpu + memory on the same die 21:35:21 RoboTedd_ has quit 21:35:35 so, no need for an interconnect (except at the gate level inside the chip) 21:36:01 why do you think that "pow constrained by memory latency" is any better than SHA256? 21:36:21 you have to think is somehow better if you're spending on time on it 21:36:47 s/on/your 21:37:32 because commoditized hardware gets optimized partly for low latency 21:37:59 how would bitcoin be better by replacing SHA256 ASICs with cucko ASICs ? 21:38:38 "[I'm missing a claim here] because commoditized hardware gets optimized partly for low latency" 21:38:43 i expect cukoo asics will be way harder to develop 21:38:53 way harder than scrypt ones 21:39:17 tromp__ harder to develop mean less companies doing it, no? how does that help centralization? 21:39:56 i think you overerestimate the feasibility of putting many GB of memory with embedded cpus on a die 21:40:18 no, I believe that making a cucko ASIC will be harder 21:40:31 i think commoditzed hardware will remain competitive 21:40:39 I just don't see the point of making pow ASICs hard to develop 21:41:08 you want GPU mining to be competitive with ASIC mining? 21:41:37 sure 21:41:42 because there's many companies building sha256 asics but only two making GPUs? 21:42:11 no, because it 21:42:16 's commodotized 21:43:03 "it's commodotized" it's starting to sound like "mongodb is web-scale" like if that was something inherently good or something 21:43:31 I'm confused 21:44:30 you prefer only two companies, namely ATI and nVidia producing most of the mining equipment "because it's commodotized" 21:44:35 ? 21:45:10 because everyone can easily buy a pc that can mine competitively 21:45:16 even if GPUs could be competitive with ASICs at all, I don't see the point 21:45:48 mining is no fun if you need to invest tons of capital preordering asics that will quickly become obsolete 21:45:48 tromp__ buying sha256 is now relatively easy and will only become easier 21:46:12 tromp__: mining isn't about having fun... 21:46:32 at some point asics will stop "getting obsolete" so fast 21:46:33 i don't want to have the asic vs commodity hardware discussion right now 21:47:09 tromp__: it'd be great if you could have a pow function that really did benefit from general hardware 21:47:16 but that's rather impossible 21:47:28 there are many peopl who want a pow for which asic advantage over commodity hardware is mimimized 21:47:44 ad populum 21:48:14 tromp__: minimizing the asic advantage makes the situation worse off! 21:48:15 and for them, cuckoo seems like the best option 21:48:56 so the best PoW algorithm would be cryptographically secure, cheap to produce, easy to replicate, hard to improve, add additional value (like curing cancer), distributed as evenly as possible, hard to deanonymize the result and be cheap to verify? 21:49:02 and I still wonder why would they want such a thing 21:49:08 either make general hardware *exactly equal* to custom hardware (impossible in practice), or make the asic advantage *as great as possible* 21:49:26 jtimon: maximum return from botnets, of course. :P 21:49:52 grazs add additional value (aka curecoin) is very different, I'm all for that 21:50:09 curecoin? 21:50:15 grazs: not to mention progress-free, and all the other things I'm too distracted to think of which PoW requires 21:50:44 sipa there was a group collecting bounties and distributing them to people folding@home 21:50:59 ok 21:50:59 maaku: yes, think I included that with 'hard to improve' 21:52:01 anyway, thx for the "feedback"; i'm gonna have alittle break now 21:52:05 afk 21:52:47 btw I actually liked charlee's intervention 21:53:05 ? 21:53:11 jtimon: well additional value is only good so long as it can't be monetized... 21:53:35 there were some stupid arguments I expected 21:54:37 and it was funny how he started to answer the question "What was your motivation for creating litecoin? When I created litecoin there was already other alternatives, but those were created by other people." 21:55:15 but overall good, I don't really think he went too technical, he even explained colored coins 21:55:24 spoken like a tru playa 21:56:04 maaku would seti pow be monetizable? 21:56:14 no 21:56:44 seti isn't a pow, it's just work 21:57:12 yes, I mean an hypothetical seti-based pow 21:57:16 RoboTeddy has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:58:14 not that SETI is the more useful thin for humanity in the world, but still better than hash collisions or prime numbers I think 21:58:38 jtimon: someone could pay money per work unit completed, as a way of 'donating' to the seti project 21:58:38 results held random until you send seticoins to the coming coinbase 21:58:44 held ransom* 21:59:36 more generally, if it was a general BOINC proof-of-work, it's easy to see how you could setup monetizable tasks 21:59:40 maaku, yes, I think that's simpler and I would like the foundation to do that 22:00:15 RoboTedd_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:00:18 maaku, you said it yourself, they have to be hard-to-monetize tasks 22:00:30 well, if/when freimarkets is completed it's a rather simple matter to issue assets based on the BOINC point system 22:00:33 no, general BOINC 22:00:51 RoboTeddy has quit 22:00:56 maaku, yes I remember that plan 22:01:32 and gamers could make money with their GPUs again! everybody happy 22:04:15 btw, on the hearings, it is curious how so many people think that the blockchain's "main advantage" are somehow "cheap transactions", completely ignoring the big subsidies we have 22:05:13 jtimon: yea, "so you're telling me that your _global broadcast medium_'s value is that it's cheap?" 22:06:18 off-chain credit transactions will always be cheaper, this is just trustless 22:06:41 although irreversible actually makes transactions cheaper 22:06:56 an fees non-proportional 22:08:26 s/an/and 22:16:34 jtimon: what are these subsidies? 22:18:08 grazs: mining subsidy 22:18:24 grazs: our preset inflation that basically pays for the system's security 22:19:29 sipa: ah, oh yes ofc 22:21:27 you know, just $127,500 per hour 22:21:29 nothing big 22:25:59 mappum has quit 22:27:47 mappum has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:28:35 c0rw1n has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:33:33 dlidstrom has quit 22:41:55 gavinandresen has quit 22:45:26 who can be said to have invented POW? was it adam or hal? 22:46:23 i don't mean that to be an exhastive list; english 'or' is ambiguous that way.. 22:47:07 andytoshi: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hashcash 22:50:21 Am I the only person in here who ever used Hal's RPOW system? 22:50:28 I wonder if I can find some tokens from it. 22:51:01 this related work predates hashcash by 5 years: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory_bound_function#Using_memory_bound_functions_to_prevent_spam 22:52:43 it's not a proof of work though 22:54:05 dwork and naor didn't have asymmetric validation times, which is the important innovation, I think 23:04:14 phrackage has quit 23:05:21 gmaxwell: I downloaded the source yesterday and assumed I was the only one who ever did that :P 23:07:50 jron: oh well it's long since dead as far as I know... or is hal's server back up again. 23:07:53 ? 23:08:15 I downloaded it and used it and talked to hal about it some back when it was new... had suggested some improvements and he tried to talk me into making a GUI for it. :) 23:10:08 I was just got an urge to check it out after reading a story about him and his wife. I never compiled it\executed it. 23:12:45 tacotime_ is now known as tt_away 23:13:04 tromp__: Adam Back has a very nuanced understanding of the origin of POW-like mechanisms/concepts and their history, including an extremely detailed response to an edit I made on the bitcoin.it wiki where I was wrecking Steve Gibson's video explanation of bitcoin. It's very fascinating if you can ever corner him somewhere. 23:13:35 you mean like in here where he talks almost every day? 23:13:42 oh is that him? 23:13:47 hahah 23:13:51 jesus 23:13:51 Yes. 23:13:54 hehe. 23:14:22 Well how am I supposed to know these nicknames, I live in the frozen north *grumble grumble* 23:14:36 Sorry Adam. 23:14:39 there are certantly differences in the requirements for anti-spam applications and consensus POW. 23:14:53 e.g. progress freeness is probably not really important for anti-spam. 23:14:56 midnightmagic: you might enjoy the interview he recently did on letstalkbitcoin. 23:15:11 ah yes I believe I will. He was very generous with his time in his emails with me. 23:16:45 aaargh produced by antonopoulos 23:17:07 midnightmagic: it was still enjoyable =) 23:17:26 midnightmagic: i would love to have adam's feedback on cuckoo cycle 23:17:57 :) 23:19:13 oh apparently BFL's 28nm stuff has a test chip running now. 23:23:10 phrackage has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:29:09 freewil has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:35:12 mappum has quit 23:35:29 mappum has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:38:02 Shibe_tabsa has quit 23:42:11 phrackage has quit 23:42:17 phrackage_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:47:51 Emcy has quit 23:49:09 nomailing has quit 23:51:47 orperelman has quit 23:57:16 antonopolous was that guy that got himself filmed having dinner, drinking wine and talking about bitcoin in a restaurant? 23:57:32 jtimon: yes 23:57:36 I didn't watched the whole video but that was kind of odd 23:58:09 DougieBot5000 has quit