00:02:24 Fistful_1f_Coins is now known as Fistful_of_Coins 00:06:05 justanotheruser1 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:07:47 justanotheruser has quit 00:11:26 eristisk has quit 00:14:41 justanotheruser has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:15:15 justanotheruser1 has quit 00:18:58 gmaxwell, andytoshi: i think an interesting rule for fiat coins would be to encode the monetary policy into a smart issuance policy. eg 2%/yr QE cap, things like that. then they cant exceed it without a super majority vote of clients 00:19:31 DougieBot5000 has quit 00:20:19 gmaxwell, andytoshi: cryptographic assurance against moral-hazard :) ie cant panic bend the formal rules because a monetary policy committee cant withstand political pressure even though they know its a bad idea. 00:23:06 justanotheruser1 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:23:57 ielo has quit 00:24:07 justanotheruser has quit 00:25:46 Emcy_ has quit 00:26:14 Emcy has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:32:08 justanotheruser1 has quit 00:39:38 jps has quit 00:40:55 Guest44977 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:47:45 justanotheruser has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:51:15 justanotheruser1 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:52:49 justanotheruser has quit 00:58:29 roidster has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:58:44 roidster is now known as Guest34518 01:01:11 justanotheruser has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:03:21 justanotheruser1 has quit 01:10:32 justanotheruser1 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:11:40 justanotheruser has quit 01:16:01 freewil has quit 01:19:19 justanotheruser has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:20:33 justanotheruser1 has quit 01:22:45 freewil has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:26:11 Guest44977 is now known as rdymac 01:26:24 rdymac has quit 01:27:55 justanotheruser has quit 01:31:36 rdymac has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:36:49 justanotheruser has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:37:07 justanotheruser has quit 01:37:08 justanotheruser has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:38:13 freewil has quit 01:43:34 justanotheruser has quit 01:44:56 justanotheruser has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:46:36 justanotheruser has quit 01:46:36 justanotheruser has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:52:27 justanotheruser1 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:53:09 justanotheruser has quit 01:57:50 RoboTeddy has quit 02:02:55 justanotheruser1 has quit 02:04:38 jps has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:21:32 sl01 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:22:57 sl01 has quit 02:24:53 sl01 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:25:54 justanotheruser has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:28:42 RoboTeddy has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:36:09 jps has quit 02:41:48 jps has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:44:28 RoboTeddy has quit 02:45:03 RoboTeddy has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:45:23 RoboTeddy has quit 02:45:56 RoboTeddy has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:04:06 Luke-Jr has quit 03:04:25 Luke-Jr has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:09:07 ghtdak has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:09:29 jps has quit 03:26:09 Ursium has quit 03:32:25 new proof-of- system to be announced soon based on the efforts of BlueMatt, myself, and others! 03:37:08 Luke-Jr: curious 03:38:17 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:39:19 petertodd: another guy is writing up the announcement post now 03:39:40 Luke-Jr: oh nice, you guys are serious? 03:39:51 Luke-Jr: a serious POW, not like proof-of-twerk? 03:39:53 petertodd: <.< 03:39:56 well, proof of something. 03:40:02 >.> 03:40:05 oh. 03:40:40 still interested. 03:43:33 nessence has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:47:19 by 'writing up' you mean that if i stay up another hour i'll see it? 03:48:09 Guest34518 has quit 03:48:56 roidster has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:48:58 andytoshi: not sure what the schedule is on it 03:49:14 he said by this weekend :< 03:50:17 .. but he might have a draft for me to look over in a few mins 03:56:18 Ursium has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:58:05 Ursium_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:01:36 Ursium has quit 04:03:15 Ursium_ has quit 04:04:52 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has quit 04:29:32 has somebody tried poking ghash.io and asking them to change their default block size? 04:30:50 brisque: they intentionally have it set low because they can't afford a decent internet connection apparently -.- 04:31:17 (and can't figure out how to run a pool with the block broadcasts colo'd) 04:31:48 that's awful. I've seen them orphan their own blocks quite a few times too. 04:32:53 mr_burde_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:33:56 it would be nice for them to make decent sized blocks though. surely they can manage the small influx of data they need to broadcast them properly. 04:35:02 mr_burdell has quit 05:34:52 super3 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:37:05 justanotheruser has quit 05:45:10 justanotheruser has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:45:57 go1111111 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:55:06 justanotheruser1 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:55:22 justanotheruser1 has quit 05:55:22 justanotheruser1 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:55:33 justanotheruser has quit 05:59:34 Ursium has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:03:50 justanotheruser1 has quit 06:04:21 Ursium has quit 06:07:19 justanotheruser has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:11:45 justanotheruser has quit 06:11:45 justanotheruser has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:17:02 justanotheruser has quit 06:17:15 justanotheruser has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:17:20 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has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:52:56 dlidstrom has quit 10:04:21 Ursium has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:06:21 justanotheruser has quit 10:07:00 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has quit 10:07:55 hnz_ has quit 10:09:47 Ursium has quit 10:12:38 hnz has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:14:17 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:17:07 ielo has quit 10:20:53 justanotheruser has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:21:49 jtimon has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:30:02 RoboTeddy has quit 10:30:12 TD[away] is now known as TD 10:30:15 good morning 10:32:15 frankbutt has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:32:20 frankbutt has left #bitcoin-wizards 10:34:42 TD, morning 11:04:39 TD_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:05:05 Ursium has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:10:27 Ursium has quit 11:16:29 justanotheruser1 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:19:12 justanotheruser has quit 11:22:40 pajarillo has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:39:26 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has quit 11:39:39 rdymac has quit 11:40:06 rdymac has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:40:40 nessence_ has quit 11:41:06 nessence has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:57:30 orperelman has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:14:17 Ursium has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:17:58 jtimon_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:20:38 jtimon has quit 12:24:41 orperelman has quit 12:29:01 jtimon_ has quit 12:37:38 shesek has quit 12:49:56 shesek has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:53:28 nanotube has quit 13:01:57 nanotube has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:15:00 justanotheruser1 has quit 13:22:58 nessence has quit 13:27:45 andytoshi has quit 13:29:52 justanotheruser has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:21:55 andytoshi has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:24:30 orperelman has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:25:01 mr_burde_ is now known as mr_burdell 14:29:18 rdymac has quit 14:30:36 rdymac has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:44:01 <_ingsoc> _ingsoc has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:04:33 HongBaoRou has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:10:52 rdymac has quit 15:11:50 here is a cool paper suggesting a category-theoretic view of crypto: http://arxiv.org/pdf/1401.6488v1.pdf 15:11:54 maybe nobody here wants that :} 15:13:54 vbuterin has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:16:36 rdymac has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:16:47 I giggle at the abstract, in that the cryptographic functions whos defintions (rather than proofs) span pages are often the things that get not actual applications. :P 15:17:19 orperelman has quit 15:19:50 roidster has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:21:58 jtimon has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:40:59 HInfoForIRC has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:41:03 HInfoForIRC has left #bitcoin-wizards 15:46:14 dlidstrom has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:51:07 krl has left #bitcoin-wizards 15:58:33 oh, "maxcoin uses a faster and more secure hashing algorithm for proof of work" 15:58:48 in theory, if you wanted to send 10,000 outputs, would you send it in 1 transaction or split it into multiple transactions? 15:59:38 DougieBot5000 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:00:54 optimator: I'm not sure I understand the question, depends on what you want to achive? 16:02:15 say I want to send to 10,000 different addresses using 10 inputs. Is there an advantage in splitting the send into multiple transactions rather than sending it as 1 large transaction? 16:02:40 optimator: there is a practical limit n txouts 32 is it? 16:03:13 oh 16:03:56 TD_ has quit 16:04:23 is that limit detailed somewhere? I don't see it here - https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transactions 16:04:57 anyone body read the mixcoin paper? 16:05:04 im going to read it this week - just want a heads up on quality 16:05:36 jtimon: faster? 16:07:25 jtimon: they should get on the horn with NIST, — nist wanted something faster and more secure than sha2 for sha3 and basically no one achieved that. They mostly got equally fast and differently secure. :P 16:10:05 optimator: maybe ask on #bitcoin-dev someone will know offhand it maybe in terms of isStandard which is a different limit to the msg format 16:10:54 vbuterin has quit 16:11:45 gmaxwell: yes, it uses Keccak, but he said SHA256 is slower (sorry flash) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Q684UxfDSU#t=907 16:12:45 jtimon: thats not true, SHA256 is faster than Keccak. 16:12:50 vbuterin has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:13:16 well it depends on your hardware, I'm sure on some things Keccak is faster. 16:13:19 vbuterin has quit 16:13:26 They're nearly tied. It depends on how muc hdata you're hashing. 16:14:31 I imagined it was simply false, "it's a more fair hasing algorithm" isn't true either 16:14:44 gmaxwell: i really like the first half of that arxiv paper actually, it has clear explanations of a lot of basic security ideas and their history. probably the category theory is obtuse if you haven't seen it before, but there isn't much of it. there's more in the second half and it goes over my head. 16:15:14 jtimon: lol they claim that too? 0_o 16:15:18 as you say the really obtuse definitions that this work help are not anything that anybody would implement. but having a conceptual framework for this stuff could lead to existence/nonexistence proofs that would be good to have independent of any implementation 16:15:24 Keccak is supposed to be really fast when implemeted directly in hardware 16:15:57 wumpus: yes, though thats also true of sha256. 16:16:17 adam3us3: thanks 16:16:34 optimator: No limit on number of transaction outputs, but transactions larger than 100Kbytes are non-standard, and larger than 1MB cannot get into a block. 16:17:57 gavinandresen has left #bitcoin-wizards 16:18:05 gavinandresen: is there any benefit to structuring the transactions smaller? Say in 10K chunks 16:18:24 gavinandresen has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:19:07 versus say a 50k transaction 16:19:17 optimator: maybe re-ask that prev bit gavinandresen dropped & rejoined either side of it 16:19:37 optimator: I can't think of any benefit to chunking to 10k instead of 50k. 16:19:59 Other than if you're right on the edge of being included in a block some smaller lower fee paying transactions might scoot in where you don't fit. 16:24:05 i do txs in 500 output chunks 16:24:21 i doubt it helps much, but it doesn't reduce the overhead much to do larger chunks 16:25:25 yea, arguably once you get above 100 outputs optimizing for change size makes more sense. 16:35:02 Ursium has quit 16:38:21 Did anybody ever work on background wallet defragmentation? And perhaps changing the priority calculations to somehow reward shrinking UTXO? 16:38:53 We are interested in that 16:39:05 jgarzik: I believed we merged the priority change that made shrinking the utxo better, though we also capped free transactions to 1000 bytes so it probably matters less. 16:39:32 oh, hearing time 16:40:01 (the change was to not count the size of scriptsigs in the size used for computing the priority) 16:40:46 ah! 16:41:27 TD_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:41:50 http://www.totalwebcasting.com/view/?id=nysdfs 16:46:39 would be nice if someone could figure out how to download the file for later playback. 16:54:03 indeed. I also hit "pause". The video stopped. When unpaused... jumped forward in time, missing whatever had been said during the pause. no buffering :/ 16:58:02 shesek has quit 16:58:17 okay I'm grabbing it now, but i missed the beginning. 16:58:29 and I may get cut off because I'll be too busy to supervise it. 16:58:46 it should be available in the future 16:58:50 it'll be expensive though 17:00:05 the winkelvi! 17:00:30 sipa, dat statement written by their lawyers 17:00:40 of course 17:00:59 i found their talk in san jose very unimpressive too :) 17:01:30 you want the statement written by lawyers... it's on the record 17:01:38 * jgarzik helped in the US Senate hearing prep 17:02:35 jgarzik, sure... but usually you'd at least try to pretend like you wrote it 17:02:44 it seems like he hasn't even read the statement before 17:03:26 TD_ has quit 17:04:57 lol question is lol 17:09:09 super3 has quit 17:09:22 shesek has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:10:03 dlidstrom has quit 17:10:56 jgarzik: bitpay question for you. feel free to take it private if answers are sensitive in any way. how do you guys handle exchange rates for thinly traded currencies? it seems like CHF local trading has kind of broken today, because some wallets are showing the bitcoinaverage global cross-rate and others are showing the rate they calculate from actual trading data 17:11:05 and the spreads are enormous, mind-bogglingly huge 17:11:07 super3 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:11:21 TD, my answer: dunno :) 17:11:45 that answer is pretty sensitive :) 17:15:35 so what im hearing is 17:15:50 i should start a company that does exotic transaction types 17:28:09 these guys are silly 17:32:30 go1111111 has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:37:33 phantomcircuit: exotic? Like what? 17:37:48 ahah 17:37:57 he cant pronounce nascent 17:46:01 andytoshi has quit 17:46:31 andytoshi has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:59:07 is it over yet? 18:05:22 gmaxwell, no 18:05:26 gmaxwell, and it's fucking fantastic 18:05:29 a must-watch 18:05:30 it is ? 18:05:35 damn. wish i was watching it now :) 18:05:40 what makes it so fantastic? 18:05:55 I've captured it. 18:06:17 jgarzik is this one better than the senate hearing? 18:06:22 much better 18:06:27 should probably get someone to transcribe. 18:06:29 a very, very in-depth, smart discussion 18:06:32 ++ 18:08:26 As soon as its done I'll upload it so people can transcribe. 18:08:38 thanks guys! 18:08:38 well, OK, in depth and part an opportunity for these guys to pump their bitcoin stuffs 18:08:42 * TD has to run 18:09:49 what's being discussed, where? 18:10:13 Department of Financial Services? 18:10:48 * nsh tunes in 18:10:52 it is a loose, free-wheeling discussion 18:11:09 IMO the first True Bitcoin Hearing, with people asking tough questions 18:12:03 good 18:16:54 is BPP != P open? 18:19:26 the entire hierarchy is up for grabs 18:20:11 (specifically, everything collapses to P if the universe is really silly) 18:20:31 damnit, my battery went dead, and so I missed a bit most likely. :( 18:20:37 :( 18:21:13 Shibe_tabsa has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:22:01 i like this line of argument 18:22:13 (not sure it'll be as well received by others listening though) 18:23:12 Ursium has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:23:50 andytoshi: these talks look interesting http://terrytao.wordpress.com/2008/01/10/distinguished-lecture-series-i-avi-wigderson-the-power-and-weakness-of-randomness-in-computation/ 18:23:59 (regarding BPP=?=P) 18:26:05 thx nsh. i'm putting together a talk of my own and trying to figure out how to briefly discuss complexity.. 18:27:50 oh, cool. for what purpose? 18:28:15 (i'd like to hear that talk if you get a chance to record it. or see the notes at least) 18:28:53 it's just a first-year "everyone gives talks to each other" thing at my school. so i want to explain my public-fhe problem..and snarks, because that's the coolest application i can think of 18:29:15 but i only have an hour and these people are pure math folks. so i'm having a tough time compressing material :P 18:30:25 if i think it'll work out i'll try to record it 18:33:35 * nsh nods 18:37:41 later charlee lee? let's see if he says things like "freicoin is like the usd" and "merged mining would destroy your alt because miners would mine it for free" again 18:41:28 I guess he won't be asked about that, but I'm always eager to hear new "sentences to remember" from him 18:42:30 * nsh smiles 18:42:52 nsh: current plan is to run through complexity, "hard" problems, security models, several examples of cryptosystems which move information in weird ways with respect to the data flows, turing machines and arithmetic circuits, FHE, PCP and verifiable computing, SNARKs public-FHE 18:42:52 Some of the questions and some of the answers were silly or off 18:42:57 but overall, pretty good 18:43:20 I can't see anything, did it finished already? 18:43:31 yes. resumes at 2:30pm 18:43:52 andytoshi, sounds good 18:44:41 jgarzik what time is it for you now? 18:47:32 https://people.xiph.org/~greg/bitcoin_ny_hearing_1.ts https://people.xiph.org/~greg/bitcoin_ny_hearing_2.ts 18:47:39 second file has about :30 left in the upload 18:48:14 maybe it didn't actually miss anything— since the streams would start a bit before realtime and I was probably only offline for two minutes, it's possible. I'm not sure. 18:48:22 I missed a bit at the beginning for sure. 18:49:18 1:49pm 18:49:22 jtimon, ^ 18:49:33 thank you both 18:51:15 EasyAt has quit 18:51:57 Luke-Jr has quit 18:52:01 ielo has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:52:32 Luke-Jr has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:59:12 EasyAt has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:59:12 EasyAt has quit 18:59:12 EasyAt has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:01:44 nsh: thx much for that terry tao link. it covers a bunch of what i want to talk about, and has a zk proof of graph 3-colorability which (a) simple and (b) can be fiat-shamir transformed 19:02:26 ah, great 19:03:14 yeah, tao seems to be quite a mathematical legend 19:03:58 andytoshi: is it one where you give the labels or the edges? 19:03:59 :P he is indeed. 19:04:08 gmaxwell: you give the labels 19:04:52 if you only give the labels how do you know the graph is isomorphic to the query graph? 19:05:13 i watched this talk by tao the other day -- very interesting: 19:05:18 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtsrAw1LR3E 19:05:34 gmaxwell: there is no isomorphism involved, the graph and its edges are common knowledge 19:05:40 The classic ZK graph proof is that you commit to a bunch of permuted solutions and then the verifier challenges you to reveal either the labels or the edges. 19:05:53 (but not both, since that would give away the solution) 19:06:02 yeah, i'm familiar with that one, that's why i was surprised to see this one 19:06:44 i need to think about this, my first impression is that its OK because the verifier knows the graph under consideration 19:07:02 oh interesting. 19:07:04 you don't use an isomorphic graph, you use an 'isomorphic' coloring 19:07:20 you randomly pick an edge and only reveal that the two colors are equal. 19:08:31 for proving more structural things, eg the existence of hamilton cycles, you need an isomorphic graph..i'll be glad if i can avoid that because mathematicians never get that "isomorphic" does not mean "obviously the same" 19:10:26 well it's nice because you can just wave your hands and say "3-coloring is NP complete" 19:10:41 yep :) 19:11:22 justanotheruser has quit 19:11:22 justanotheruser has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:11:25 Given a network with topology like bitcoins, is it possible to send a message directly (not broadcasted to everyone else) in a zero-knowledge manner (your message somehow finds a path to him, but no one knows that path). 19:12:13 justanotheruser: if you have a view of the network you can do onion routing. though it's a bit hard to do without timing side channels 19:12:47 andytoshi: Why can't you just paint everything blue? 19:12:49 by 'a bit' i mean in the limit it's impossible, eg if you're the only one doing it everyone can see that it's you 19:13:24 gmaxwell: are you talking about the graph problem? 19:13:29 cymanon-zzzz is now known as cymanon 19:14:47 andytoshi: the 3 coloring zk proof. Why can't I just commit to everything blue (e.g. all the edges at a vertex the same color). As it was described there appears to be no test for this. 19:15:11 gmaxwell: you are coloring the vertices 19:16:30 ..i'm having trouble in that i don't understand how you can commit to one of three colors that can't be forged with roughly 3 tries 19:16:52 oh derp, right, the test should be that they're not the same not that they are the same. 19:17:46 :P. it seems to me that if you are doing SHA256(color + secret) or something, you can easily change your secret so you have no commitment. but if there is no secret then the verifier can see right through the commitment so it is not zk 19:18:22 Baz has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:18:52 wait, i'm an idiot, never mind 19:20:38 somehow i was thinking the colors were the commitment and the hashes were what you were proving you had :P 19:22:40 andytoshi: I had an idea to stop timing side channel attacks. But the real question was how to I get my message to someone without knowing their IP 19:24:51 if all messages are broadcast, you can 'identify' people by their public keys. just broadcast a message that only your target can encrypt. but this is probably very easy to sybil. 19:25:08 you need to have some information about the nodes your are hopping between to avoid sybils 19:25:17 decrypt* 19:27:12 andytoshi: yes, nodes would have to have some PoW or PoS to prevent sybil 19:34:35 andytoshi has quit 19:42:49 rdymac has quit 19:44:06 rdymac has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:50:20 cymanon has quit 19:51:13 cymanon has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:55:09