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01:38:36 <maaku> is there any reason to change the initialization values when performing truncated hashing, as NIST recommends for its
01:38:46 <maaku> *for its truncated modes?
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04:10:45 <phantomcircuit> petertodd, it's /2
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15:10:27 <jtimon_> fund Jamaican bobsled, such pump. fund dogemarket, to the moon http://maaku.github.io/dogemarket.org/
15:21:25 <_ingsoc> Hahaha. Nice.
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17:02:55 <petertodd> jtimon_: the amoral marketer in me thinks maaku's use of dogecoin to pump freidmarkets is very shewed
17:03:50 <jtimon_> can't find shewed...
17:04:00 <helo> shrewd
17:04:26 <petertodd> * petertodd hooked on fonics worked for me
17:04:52 <jtimon_> we have more stuff in mind "Litemarkets: like gold to colored coin's silver"
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17:05:40 <petertodd> jtimon_: I think you need a cheese analogy, because you can find that kind of thing on the moon
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17:06:29 <jtimon_> apparently people didn't undesrtood what free software means and kept complaining about freicoin's demurrage and foundation when talking freimarkets
17:06:43 <jtimon_> so maybe people get it this way...
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17:07:11 <petertodd> jtimon_: lol, though speaking of, I noticed that doge's issuing scheme is bugged and results in 5% inflation forever (notied == saw on reddit)
17:07:30 <petertodd> jtimon_: hilarious that actually matches almost what how I think crypto-currencies should workd!
17:07:41 <jtimon_> and if those dogs are funding the jamaican bosleigh team...
17:07:48 <petertodd> heh
17:07:55 <petertodd> I'll have to buy some
17:08:16 <jtimon_> maybe the perpetual inflation was on purpose, some other alts have it
17:08:40 <petertodd> well the github discussion seems to indicate it wasn't, but anyway, happy accident
17:08:50 <sipa> petertodd: that means the int64 amounts should overflow at some point?
17:08:54 <petertodd> (pity it'll probably be removed in a hard fork...)
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17:09:14 <petertodd> sipa: what amounts though? there's no "total coins" amount in the consensus code
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17:09:47 <jtimon_> petertodd: I think what sipa means is that you could cause overflows at some point
17:09:57 <petertodd> sipa: I think the tx code is probably safe because of MAX_MONEY (which the doge team apparently thought was what set the max amount of money)
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17:10:34 <sipa> petertodd: right, i mean more that MAX_MONEY may at some point in the future become uselessly low
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17:10:44 <petertodd> jtimon_: sure, but if no consensus critical code is affected they're ok, and anyway, checked again and it's not 5% inflation, but a linear coin # increase, so it'll take awhile
17:10:56 <sipa> oh
17:10:59 <sipa> boring :)
17:11:10 <petertodd> sipa: well, saying "inflation" was bad of me, so I think they're ok
17:11:25 <jtimon_> it's monetary inflation
17:11:35 <jtimon_> not necessarily price inflation
17:11:37 <petertodd> jtimon_: yup, just not numerical inflation :P
17:11:38 <sipa> yeah, it's money inflation not price inflation
17:11:42 <sipa> not what i meant
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17:11:53 <sipa> just that linear increase and not exponential is boring
17:12:08 <petertodd> sipa: yeah, well, time to make expocoin...
17:12:14 <petertodd> sipa: e-coin!
17:12:17 <sipa> exp(coin)
17:12:24 <petertodd> e^coin!
17:12:41 <sipa> actually, it's O(coin) - the inflation is proportional to the amount in circulation
17:12:42 <jtimon_> most people believe freicoin and expocoin are equivalent
17:12:54 <sipa> jtimon_: aren't they (apart from psychology) ?
17:13:08 <petertodd> sipa: heh, well, why not e^coin! with ! as factorial...
17:13:20 <jtimon_> people forked our diff filter, but nobody forked our demurrage
17:13:49 <petertodd> jtimon_: I think it's a marketing problem; I would have called it "a shared coin security fund"
17:14:17 <jtimon_> sipa: we believe they influence intrest differently ie: price inflation just rises nominal interest, demurrage makes REAL intereset fall
17:14:54 <jtimon_> https://www.community-exchange.org/docs/Gesell/en/neo/part5/7.htm
17:15:12 <sipa> right, but that's just a psychological difference, no?
17:15:14 <jtimon_> "Hausse-Premium" is usually known as "inflation premium"
17:15:26 <sipa> the % of coins you own doesn't change
17:15:35 <petertodd> * petertodd can't believe he just read "support for KYC regulatory compliance" in comic sans
17:15:42 <jtimon_> sipa think of loans
17:15:50 <jtimon_> and real capital
17:16:21 <sipa> jtimon_: define on top of your client a layer that shows every amount as ($VALUE / $TOTAL_IN_CIRCULATION)
17:16:31 <sipa> jtimon_: expocoin and freicoin do become equivalent then, no?
17:16:49 <sipa> (honest question, i don't know enough about freicoin)
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17:18:35 <jtimon_> well, not exactly at the low level (don't have refHeights) but yes, I guess economically would be the same if everybody uses the freicoin unit instead of the expocoin one
17:19:11 <petertodd> sipa, jtimon_: lost coins makes expocoin and freicoin act differently
17:19:38 <jtimon_> petertodd yes, that's true too
17:20:16 <sipa> petertodd: how so?
17:20:23 <jtimon_> freicoin recycles lost coins
17:20:36 <sipa> how do you detect lost coins?
17:20:54 <jtimon_> you don't detect them, you destroy all coins and reissue them
17:21:16 <sipa> i don't understand
17:21:28 <jtimon_> freicoin is constantly destroying coins, lost wallets or not, and then re-issuing through the miners
17:21:40 <sipa> i may misunderstand some implementation issues on freicoin
17:21:49 <jtimon_> we explain it as "demurrage fees go to miners" to simplify
17:21:55 <petertodd> sipa: demurrage affects you regardless of what other coins are availalble, expocoin just introduces more coins into the economy
17:22:15 <petertodd> sipa: the result is roughly the same, but the exact amount of economic inflaton can differ in practice
17:22:48 <petertodd> sipa: never mind that demurrage has other implications, such as how it affects things like colored coins
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17:26:46 <jtimon_> sipa these are probably the more relevant commits https://github.com/freicoin/freicoin/commit/4025098c05c351d72c8a0916ec6010e821d288d6
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17:26:57 <jtimon_> https://github.com/freicoin/freicoin/commit/cee818350d857029e0e7148fece35646d479aea1
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17:56:40 <gmaxwell> This is the puzzle I thought some people here might enjoy: http://web.mit.edu/puzzle/www/2014/puzzle/puzzle_with_answer_cronin/  (don't click solution unless you want to be spoiled)   Yes, it's supposted to say that its solved, the theme of this section is that puzzles were written backwards, where you got a 'solution' first and had to derrive the title.
18:09:12 <nsh> gmaxwell, is the title supposed to be a question that leads to the answer 'CRONIN'?
18:12:35 <petertodd> nsh: 'round here we'd ask 'Find N such that H(n)=<garbage>' and would have been clever to bruteforce the nonce rather than the PoW solution.
18:13:45 <nsh> hmm
18:14:05 <gmaxwell> nsh: well kinda, actually the title is a single word.
18:16:01 <nsh> * nsh muses
18:16:48 <gmaxwell> nsh: make you click the card in the page.
18:18:42 <nsh> well, cheshire nyan is fun, but i'm still confused :/
18:21:30 <gmaxwell> You have to go deeper.
18:21:41 <nsh> oka y:)
18:22:34 <nsh> yay, loads of hex
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19:39:49 <maaku> sipa: inflation moves slowly through the economy giving preferential benefit to those near its source when prices are sticky
19:40:46 <maaku> and love the O(coin) name
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20:16:09 <maaku> suggestion to jgarzik: crowd-fund in dogecoins your cubesat project. you can send it on L-50 which is taking 50 units to the moon
20:16:27 <maaku> I think you can drum up enough support to actually send a dogecoin node to the moon (and put a bitcoin node on there too, of course)
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20:18:51 <jgarzik> heh
20:19:38 <nsh> that would probably work
20:19:42 <nsh> i wanna send something to the moon
20:20:14 <nsh> (a robot that tracks down and destroys the american flag)
20:20:34 <nsh> ((joke. there's no american flag))
20:22:23 <nsh> maaku, what is this L-50?
20:22:24 <maaku> jgarzik: i'm serious : http://www.lunarcubes.com/
20:22:30 <nsh> ah ty
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20:23:14 <nsh> is there a definite launch planned?
20:23:57 <maaku> nsh: V-50 is a 50-unit housing module attached to centaur upper stages, which go through Earth-Moon L4/L5 on their way out of cislunar space
20:24:14 <maaku> L-50 is a project to buy one of these to send cubes to the moon
20:24:30 <nsh> ah, i see
20:24:36 <maaku> there's also plans to use them for Mars exploration, but that requires a relay spacecraft
20:25:04 <BigBitz> Heh, cool quiz, gmaxwell :) or puzzle, whatever. :)
20:25:14 <nsh> would it be feasible to book passage on a regular comsat launch for that? or would it require a special trajectory?
20:25:28 <maaku> (once you're at Earth-Moon or Earth-Sun lagrange points, it's basically downhill to anywhere in the inner solar system, with the right orbit)
20:25:43 <nsh> * nsh nods
20:26:02 <maaku> nsh: the Centaur stages are what take comsats to GEO, then for satallite safety reasons they use their latent fuel to eject themselves from cislunar space
20:26:16 <nsh> oooh
20:26:22 <nsh> that's convenient
20:26:37 <maaku> so every. single. launch. of a GEO bird sends a centaur stage (or equiv) through one of these trajectories
20:27:06 <nsh> * nsh crosses out all his ambitions and replaces with "write code that ends up orbiting moon"
20:27:13 <nsh> :)
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20:49:49 <petertodd> * petertodd crosses out all his ambitions and replaces them with "write code that exploits code orbiting the moon"
20:51:58 <maaku> that you coudl do now...
20:52:49 <brisque> working on software on the moon would be awful. imagine the cost of getting somebody to go there and power cycle your server because you killed the wrong process.
21:00:12 <CodeShark> keep someone there at all times just in case
21:03:31 <CodeShark> the most annoying thing about working on software on the moon would be the latency
21:04:17 <brisque> probably get better latency to the moon than on a 3G connection, it's not all that far away
21:04:29 <CodeShark> a quarter of a million miles
21:04:41 <brisque> little over a second then?
21:05:01 <CodeShark> in each direction, yes
21:05:37 <brisque> just use a client with local echo, it'd be just as usable a SSH over GPRS
21:08:11 <jgarzik> maaku, not implying you were not being serious.  just fun :)  dogecoin has a lot of cute marketing, like the bobsled thing.
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21:10:59 <CodeShark> SSH over GPRS is usable? hell, anything over GPRS is usable?
21:12:20 <brisque> http://mosh.mit.edu/
21:12:57 <brisque> I used a phone with a GPRS connection for a few years, it was incredibly painful.
21:19:14 <CodeShark> many of us did
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