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03:20:06 <phantomcircuit> huh
03:20:06 <phantomcircuit> sitting here it just hit me why a deflationary spiral is a non sequitur with bitcoin
03:20:06 <phantomcircuit> risk of collapse makes the issue of people as a whole "hoarding" bitcoins impossible
03:20:06 <phantomcircuit> ironic
03:30:59 <gmaxwell> the point I like to make is one that I don't have a succinct expression of yet...
03:31:51 <gmaxwell> which is that you can only use that as argument against such against any deflationary asset existing since any "deflationary spiral" 'risk' exists if you use it or not.
03:32:49 <gmaxwell> e.g. who cares if you use dollars as your daily spending money. Gold exists and is 'deflationary' (maybe, ignoring your collapse argument)... so if the argument is true why isn't the economy collapsing due to people rapidly converting every free dollar they have to gold?
03:33:42 <andytoshi> the claim is that once people have their gold, they stop converting anything to anything..
03:33:46 <andytoshi> which is arguably even sillier
03:36:11 <gmaxwell> I think a lot of this ultimately stems from the fact that there are inherent unfairnesses and inefficiencies in the whole concept of durable money.
03:36:49 <gmaxwell> But the notion that money itself is a purely artificial construct and perhaps not perfect in every way, is so far outside of peoples thinking that they get stuck in weird dissonance.
03:38:16 <gmaxwell> At least in the US our society has placed money in a position of existing as a kind of independant good— decoupled from the productivity and happiness of people that we just don't really have the right perspective needed to critically question the behavior and role of money in our society.
03:39:21 <gmaxwell> In perhaps the same way that societies with slavery seemed to have a generally difficult time reasoning about the pratical and ethical implications of it.
03:40:50 <andytoshi> what is interesting is that if you look at most any society throughout history, they always come up with some sort of currency, and these currencies are so similar that we recognize them today as money
03:40:56 <andytoshi> perhaps the same is true of slavery
03:41:20 <andytoshi> it is more than ordinary can't-think-outside-the-box dissonance because this really does seem baked into human thinking
03:42:22 <andytoshi> the problem of finding a consistent measure of value is universal, and money solves this extremely well ..
03:42:36 <andytoshi> and then it is represented by some physical good or token, so it naturally assumes a reality of its on
03:42:37 <andytoshi> own*
03:43:08 <andytoshi> bitcoin is fascinating because it is not physical and acts in highly non-physical ways, but it still solves the problem that money does
03:44:20 <gmaxwell> Yea, I don't mean to suggest that we shouldn't have money. Money enables a lot of awesome stuff, but it has a bunch of odd behavior too.
03:45:58 <gmaxwell> E.g. with durable money you can do things like do one really useful thing, and then never do anything useful again and have society provide for you... in a way which is highly non-linear, e.g. doing N x 1/N useful things is in no way assured to do anywhere near as well for you esp if the GDP is growing.
03:46:53 <gmaxwell> simply because you can get a bunch of money, and then loan it out to get exponentially more.
03:47:34 <andytoshi> otoh, when you invest it or lend it out, even though society is supporting you, the wealth they are throwing at you does not act like your wealth
03:48:16 <andytoshi> so even though you are (unfairly) becoming very wealthy, there is a larger efficiency gain for society
03:48:18 <andytoshi> in principle, anyway
03:48:23 <gmaxwell> which is an effect which is _entirely_ decoupled from the whole idea of wanting to be able to do "barter at arms length"... maybe a good effect or a bad effect, but it seems like an inherent effect in money as our societies have envisioned it.
03:48:53 <andytoshi> this is true, these things are very hard to decouple mentally
03:49:08 <andytoshi> that, i think, is ordinary human dissonance
03:50:19 <gmaxwell> yea, I'm not good at it myself, and personally ... perhaps I'm not a great person to question this system because I've benefited from it tremendously, at least if I measure my wellbeing relative to most of the world.
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03:51:41 <andytoshi> mm, myself as well
03:52:08 <andytoshi> and tbh i think very little about the function of money, despite thinking about bitcoin a lot ... my economic curiosity mostly lies in what happens when machines are able to exchange value
03:52:55 <andytoshi> suppose we actually had a market with rational actors -- and these actors never needed to sleep or relax
03:53:27 <andytoshi> the -wizards discussions are fascinating, because maybe they could even be 100% evilly selfish, and even so they could trust each other
03:53:45 <gmaxwell> yea, well, most of my thinking only really extends to the realization that it's actually more complicated then we take for granted.
03:55:16 <andytoshi> i think humans avoid a ton of the complexity by relying on biological impulses to trust each other
03:55:29 <andytoshi> and on the police :)
03:55:49 <gmaxwell> andytoshi: well, yea, but also somewhat scarry too if you go too wizards-wank about it.  Imagine now that you have uploaded minds in computers... then everything you're thinking about also applies to "people" too, at least in theory. Which sounds neat, but then you wonder about the social implications of things like ZK-SNARKS meaning that it could actually be physically impossible to tell a convincing lie, no matter how good the ...
03:55:56 <gmaxwell> ... justification.
03:57:33 <andytoshi> wow, i have not considered that ... i need to write some scifi about this, try to explore the social implications
03:58:26 <andytoshi> (not good scifi, or even anything i'd publish .. just something to organize my own thoughts)
04:00:10 <andytoshi> * andytoshi grabs another beer
04:02:51 <gmaxwell> the nearest I've seen to touching any of these matters is in the latter half of "Rapture of the Nerds" (Doctorow, Stross— both of whom I think are crappy writers, but I enjoy their books) there is a part where the people enter into a bar which is I/O isolated from the rest of the universe, the reason for this is because the bar implements a contracts system where violating the rules is impossible (if you violate the rules the bar ...
04:02:58 <gmaxwell> ... rewinds state to undo the violation)
04:03:37 <gmaxwell> most of this stuff hasn't been touched in scifi because the authors just really have no clue it's possible. PCP theorm is still pretty recent and the implications really haven't percolated all that far.
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04:05:44 <andytoshi> i just encountered its philosophy today in 'quantum computing since democritus', i don't have a clear idea of it yet
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05:59:28 <hitchcock.freenode.net> topic is: Bitcoin research, hardfork wishlist, ideas for the future - see also: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Hardfork_Wishlist https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/User:Gmaxwell/alt_ideas
05:59:28 <hitchcock.freenode.net> Users on #bitcoin-wizards: andytoshi-logbot andytoshi CodeShar_ OneFixt espes__ gribble go11111111111 Muis Fistful_of_Coins Graet realazthat iddo Krellan hnz Hunger- jrmithdobbs adam3us justanotheruser daira1 Luke-Jr MoALTz Dylan_ jarpiain ziplock ghtdak @ChanServ maaku forrestv tucenaber typex warren BlueMatt gmaxwell sipa deepc0re_ wumpus jgarzik Alanius K1773R helo Sangheili_afk edulix michagogo|cloud spinza kinlo wangbus amiller hno harrow firepacket HM2
05:59:28 <hitchcock.freenode.net> Users on #bitcoin-wizards: Ryan52 cfields lianj trn pigeons UukGoblin epscy EasyNog petertodd nanotube azariah4 phantomcircuit Mikalv midnightmagic
05:59:31 <andytoshi> <.<
06:04:16 <pigeons> there is a book called The Anarchistic Colossus by A E van Vogt where immediate punishment from "Kirlian computers" enables an anarchistic society, perhaps "weak" and ripe for alien invasion...
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06:28:19 <gmaxwell> heh xkcd  "Extremely Strong Goldbach conjecture"
06:31:18 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: lol
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06:45:26 <midnightmagic> * midnightmagic CHEERS for comment about Stross + Doctorow being crappy writers!!
06:45:54 <midnightmagic> i couldn't even fnish the atrocity archives.
06:49:10 <gmaxwell> they really are, also rudy rucker is a crappy writer too.. but again some neat ideas.
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06:52:00 <midnightmagic> Snow Crash couldn't been a short story. He has these brilliant oases of ideas and diction in the middle of whole empty deserts of shitty prose
06:52:05 <midnightmagic> *could've
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06:56:39 <midnightmagic> .. which pretty much defines most modern scifi these days.  Oh Stephenson, how your cryptonomicon disappointed.
06:57:10 <gmaxwell> I'm mostly fine with Neal Stephenson's writing. He's long winded, and well, perhaps I'm not the person you should look to for criticism of that.
06:57:32 <gmaxwell> it does annoy me that I can't ever recommend his books to most people because they're simply too long.
06:57:57 <gmaxwell> If you can't read a long (say 80kword) novel in a single sitting then you basically can't enjoy his books.
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07:08:33 <midnightmagic> I read Tommyknockers in basicaly one sitting.
07:19:44 <midnightmagic> I gots staying power. Blindsight in one sitting. 50+ chapters of HPMoR in one sitting. Greg Bear's blood music in one. Herbert's Hellstrom's Hive and Dune, Chalker's old Wellworld novels, Four Lords of the Diamond, Stross' Friday ripoff (Saturn's Children I think? I'm trying to forget,) and entire collections of Lovecraft even though it was written at the turn of the century and is clunky.
07:21:13 <andytoshi> nice -- i've had neuromancer and cryptonomicon sitting on my HD for several years now
07:21:15 <midnightmagic> Neuromancer was an easy couple hours. Heck I can read comp sci textbooks in one go (makes studying them later easier)
07:22:10 <andytoshi> i can read textbooks for hours on end, with fun books i always feel like i ought to be doing something useful if i'm gonna stare at text for several hours
07:22:30 <andytoshi> ...and yet, i have no problem with IRC...
07:22:31 <midnightmagic> But Snow Crash. Damn. Half that stuff didn't even belong in there. Or Gaiman's American Gods. What the hell man. Thunderbird's super-powerful but the christian deities don't make an appearance?
07:22:35 <midnightmagic> bah
07:24:23 <midnightmagic> Nooooo they're making a series out of it
07:33:18 <nsh> American Gods was pretty consistently good reading for me
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08:35:33 <maaku> andytoshi, money has not taken consistent form over time
08:35:48 <maaku> that is to say what we call 'money' has been changing in nature time after time throughout human history
08:35:55 <maaku> with measurable effects
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08:38:17 <gmaxwell> (there was a reason that I qualified my statements with 'durable money', tough perhaps thats not the best definition for the effects I was talking about)
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08:39:49 <maaku> yeah you know my bias on that, but even so it's not like historical money can be put in just two categories
08:40:23 <maaku> its weird and bizaare how many fundamentally different systems we used for the same function, and retroactively we tend to think what we use now has always been the case
08:43:29 <gmaxwell> not just always been the case, but is the only kind that can exist.
08:43:45 <maaku> yeah
08:43:53 <gmaxwell> which is also somewhat amusing because we currently do use other kinds of money too, we just don't reconize it as such.
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09:04:07 <midnightmagic> nsh: We can't be friends anymore. I'm sorry.
09:04:25 <nsh> because gaiman? noes...
09:05:08 <nsh> if it helps, i was working in a call centre at the time and anything that wasn't market research questionnaires got a pretty big attentivity power-up
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10:27:35 <justanotheruser> What are your thoughts on this? Can you route your bank website traffic through a third party safely? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=173220.0
10:34:39 <nsh> * nsh frowns
10:35:44 <justanotheruser> In post 10 it looks like he proposes just giving the escrow the SSL key
10:36:38 <nsh> why not just get a receipt from the bank like everyone else does?
10:38:50 <justanotheruser> nsh: because that could be forged easily
10:44:25 <nsh> in any system where the bank has a private key, signing a receipt is going to be much simpler and more effective than keeping a log of http traffic
10:44:36 <nsh> i am probably missing something but this seems pretty absurd
10:44:57 <gmaxwell> nsh: that requires the bank cooperate.
10:45:14 <gmaxwell> this can work if the bank doesn't do jack shit beyond having an ssl website.
10:45:49 <justanotheruser> nsh: Banks don't sign receipts
10:46:08 <justanotheruser> they just encrypt it and send it to you
10:47:23 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: have you seen the post I linked?
10:47:56 <justanotheruser> You're usually able to tell me some fundamental flaw in a system.
10:48:00 <gmaxwell> a while back, if it's the thread I think it is.
10:48:23 <gmaxwell> the proxy on aws that can extract a transcript of your bank session minus login credentials
10:48:36 <gmaxwell> which has enough remote attest to be relatively confident that it's legit
10:49:13 <gmaxwell> it's ugly, but what better can you do?  It would be vunlerable to misconduct on the proxy host hardware, or vulnerabilties in the software stack.
10:49:40 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: can the transcript be forged?
10:49:43 <gmaxwell> avoiding leaking things like session cookies might be hard.
10:49:59 <gmaxwell> by someone with control of the proxy hardware or who has compromised its software stack.
10:50:15 <gmaxwell> I'd have to review again, I didn't look at it too deeply before.
10:50:28 <nsh> all seems very messy. i bet there are lots of ways to interact with online banking software that look right but cause a failure, or instantly cancelling it through another channel, etc.
10:50:31 <gmaxwell> my 30 second conclusions was 'yuck, well I suppose you probably can't do better right now'
10:51:19 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: P2P exchanging with fiat is a pretty messy concept when you have banks that don't sign receipts and dollars that don't have proof they were transacted.
10:52:15 <gmaxwell> plus tons of corner cases.
10:52:16 <nsh> i wonder what a bank would say if you asked them to cryptographically sign receipts of purchase
10:52:32 <nsh> doesn't seem hugely onerous
10:52:36 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: example of a corner case?
10:52:44 <gmaxwell> I'm sure there are all sorts of ways to make a ledger entry show up in the bank which means nothing.
10:52:51 <gmaxwell> I mean the transactions are inherently reversable.
10:52:53 <justanotheruser> nsh: they wouldn't go through that much work to keep a customer
10:53:19 <nsh> never ask for yourself. ask for you and your seventeen thousand friends :)
10:53:24 <gmaxwell> I pay you.. shows up in my bank. I get a transcript and call the bank. "sorry, I was drunk and some fraudster tricked me into it. please reverse."
10:53:41 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: how do exchanges deal with that?
10:53:47 <gmaxwell> nsh: the problem is that we want to use this for applications the bank actually wants to block.
10:53:56 <nsh> oh, right
10:54:14 <gmaxwell> justanotheruser: long delays, invasive personal information collection... and profit margins big enough to absorb non-trivial losses.
10:54:46 <justanotheruser> gmaxwell: but if I wire money to btc-e in russia, it can't be reversed right?
10:55:00 <gmaxwell> it can be, sometimes.
10:55:17 <justanotheruser> wouldn't that involve russian banks cooperating?
10:56:54 <justanotheruser> Perhaps P2P exchanging can be achieved if we only trade with members of countries that aren't super good buddies with us.
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11:31:50 <CodeShar_> gmaxwell: I got rid of that boost_log dependency :)
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11:32:39 <CodeShark> gmaxwell: I got rid of that boost_log dependency :)
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14:39:40 <Emcy> 30c3: To Protect And Infect, Part 2
14:39:54 <Emcy> is there actually a part one anywhere or is it called part 2 for another reason
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15:57:09 <Emcy> i think appelbaum genuinely thinks he might wind up dead
16:27:00 <pigeons> it is scary to be messed with and have your family messed with by the people who are apparently messing with him
16:31:13 <Emcy> just how he joked about it at the end
16:31:21 <Emcy> just the way it came across
16:31:37 <Emcy> like he knows he is far past the point of no return so may as well press on
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21:59:17 <andytoshi> a new snark paper from ben-sasson: http://eprint.iacr.org/2013/879
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22:03:48 <andytoshi> 35 pages, has a bunch of tinyram benchmarks, looks really cool
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22:53:11 <nanotube> fwiw, i enjoy both stephenson and doctorow >_> i wonder what that says about me. :)
22:56:14 <Emcy> doctorow i find a bit hard because the stuff he writes is preaching to the choir for me
23:01:56 <andytoshi> hey guys, who makes laptops like lenovo?
23:01:59 <andytoshi> who is not lenovo
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23:08:58 <nanotube> haha good thing you qualified. or i might have said lenovo. >_>
23:09:10 <Emcy> whats wrong with lenovo
23:09:12 <nanotube> what particular qualities of 'like lenovo' do you have in mind?
23:09:30 <nanotube> i've been pretty happy with dells
23:09:33 <nanotube> they take well to linux
23:13:30 <andytoshi> well, the 440p no longer has the intel chipset, and rumor has it that the default one does not support linux
23:13:54 <andytoshi> also they don't have the eraser mouse
23:19:10 <andytoshi> by 'like lenovo' i mean i want a decent keyboard, and an eraser mouse, and ruggedization
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23:55:51 <gmaxwell> maaku: in your blind signing investigation did you find an implementation for JS ready to go someplace.
23:57:25 <gmaxwell> ?
23:58:26 <gmaxwell> I'd like to ask wikimedia to just setup the donation form so that when you donate, for every— say— $10 donated you get a blindsigned token which can be used to make an IP BLOCK excempt account in order to solve this problem: http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2013-December/073764.html